Mandatory Radios

On 2/8/2010 4:28 AM, Bruce wrote:
Until you use something like FLARM - you may preludedly think you have
good situational awareness. Personal experience and that of many other,
much more experienced than I. Initially I thought it was just evidence
of my poor scan - but national and world champions alike have made the
same comment - your mind filters things out to keep complexity down to
something it can handle. Problem is some of those things move and can
very quickly be somewhere other than where you fondly imagined them to be.

From a safety perspective I cannot see how anyone can justify flying
without at least a decent radio. A decent panel mount radio is 800-1300USD.

Monitoring the local general flying channel , it is remarkable how much
traffic you hear, but never see. 5km/3NM too far away to see but is only
maybe a minute for a fast turboprop.

I know multiple anecdotes do not make data but:
Having had the experience of being low, and a little marginal getting
into an airfield I did not know on an early XC. I made a reasonable
circuit and a nice safe landing. It was a completely unremarkable
"landout". Of course, I called joining overhead on the TIBA frequency (I
was disorganised enough to have failed to note the frequency for the
field before I took off.)The B200 I had not seen in the haze on its huge
downwind acknowledged, did an orbit and landed 2 minutes behind me. If I
had not made the call I would have been turning final in front of him,
in the ground clutter, with the sun behind him. That could have been
seriously interesting. Until I called, the 2 crew Comm pilots had not
seen me, despite me crossing in front of them within 200 feet of their
height.

My 2c - nothing substitutes for pilot attention - scan and situational
awareness cannot be replaced by technology.
that said you should do whatever you can to help the old brain.

The minimum technology in our current skies has to include a radio.
Adding FLARM to the gliding aircraft - tugs included is well worth it.
Adding PCAS / Mode-C would be perfect - but would exceed the value of my
glider - but maybe not the value of my life. (That depends on when you
ask the wife ;-) )

Cheers
Bruce

Eric Greenwell wrote:
jcarlyle wrote:
A PCAS might help. And of course there's no replacement for a good
visual scan - the radio and the PCAS are crutches, nothing more.
The implication of the word "crutch" is a pilot with a good visual
scan can get along just fine without a radio. I think that is
misleading, because very few pilots can scan at such a high level they
always see all the traffic. Even the best scanners can miss a fast
airplane coming up behind them, not see one below them in the ground
clutter, or get tunnel vision when distracted by a situation.

And, I believe both the towplane and the glider should have a radio,
even if they are the only two aircraft within 20 miles of the field.
They are cheap to buy (cheaper now than ever before) and install, last
a long time, and are easy to use. It's hard to believe we're still
having this conversation.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
FLARM is NOT the answer in the US. What we need is low cost ADS-B
transceivers in the same price range as FLARM. That way we can see and
be seen by other aircraft in the US airspace system.

Low cost ADS-B technology exists TODAY and prototypes are flying. The
only thing missing is the political will in the FAA to prioritize the
establishment of certification standards so this equipment can be
commercialized for VFR applications.

Mike Schumann

--
Mike Schumann

The use and development of position awareness (collision avoidance)
technology is a very beneficial adjunct to the eyeball. I have a PCAS
in my airplane and glider and I definitely see more traffic than I
would otherwise. But in the near-airport environment, where most
collisions occur, the effectiveness of detection devices diminishes
and the radio is still the most valuable SA device in the ship.
Additionally, a radio is much more effective than the traditional
soaring signals. You still need to use the appropriate soaring signals
– However, consider things like the controversial rudder waggle
(something is wrong with your glider), how much easier and more
accurate is it for the tow pilot to hit the PTT and say, “your
spoilers are open”. Or for the glider pilot to ask the tow pilot to
turn right 20 degrees and head for the big cloud, rather than trying
to drag the tow plane tail around using an old school maneuver.

As stated earlier, it’s 2010… hard to believe radios in gliders are
even a discussion topic.

Bob

In article ,
Mike Schumann wrote:

FLARM is NOT the answer in the US. What we need is low cost ADS-B
transceivers in the same price range as FLARM. That way we can see and
be seen by other aircraft in the US airspace system.

Low cost ADS-B technology exists TODAY and prototypes are flying. The
only thing missing is the political will in the FAA to prioritize the
establishment of certification standards so this equipment can be
commercialized for VFR applications.

Has anybody mentioned PowerFLARM yet? Does FLARM, Mode-C/S, and ADS-B.
Supposedly available in the US in a couple of months. More info at
powerflarm.com.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

Mike Schumann wrote:
But sometimes it's all not enough...
Unfortunately true. Us pilots need all the help we can get.

Vaughn
Even if you do everything right, you can still be surprised. A power
pilot could easily be monitoring the local CTAF frequencies on a cross
country only to unexpectedly encounter a glider who is talking on
123.3 (what power pilot would think of monitoring that???).

The only real solution is universal deployment of ADS-B on every
aircraft, including gliders, balloons, UAVs, military aircraft, etc.
With that, if you attach your ADS-B transceiver to a GPS, you will see
everybody. No surprises. The technology exists for ADS-B
transceivers to be available for ~$1K. The only thing missing is the
political will in the FAA to permit this class of avionics to be
certified for VFR use. We need to make our voices heard that we need
this NOW.
I can't find good graphics showing current ADS-B coverage, or scheduled
coverage. Can someone point out a source? A talk at the convention said
the FAA is holding well to it's installation schedule, which was good to
hear.

The July 2009 graphic I found didn't show much coverage out West, and
surprisingly, none in Colorado, so I don't trust it much.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Feb 8, 11:30*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Mike Schumann wrote:
But sometimes it's all not enough...
Unfortunately true. *Us pilots need all the help we can get.

Vaughn
Even if you do everything right, you can still be surprised. *A power
pilot could easily be monitoring the local CTAF frequencies on a cross
country only to unexpectedly encounter a glider who is talking on
123.3 (what power pilot would think of monitoring that???).

The only real solution is universal deployment of ADS-B on every
aircraft, including gliders, balloons, UAVs, military aircraft, etc.
With that, if you attach your ADS-B transceiver to a GPS, you will see
everybody. *No surprises. *The technology exists for ADS-B
transceivers to be available for ~$1K. *The only thing missing is the
political will in the FAA to permit this class of avionics to be
certified for VFR use. *We need to make our voices heard that we need
this NOW.

I can't find good graphics showing current ADS-B coverage, or scheduled
coverage. Can someone point out a source? A talk at the convention said
the FAA is holding well to it's installation schedule, which was good to
hear.

The July 2009 graphic I found didn't show much coverage out West, and
surprisingly, none in Colorado, so I don't trust it much.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What so you mean by "coverage"
I thought the beauty of ADS-B is that it is an "aircraft to aircraft"
based system, no ground "coverage" necessary.
The other beauty is that ADS-B is NOT radar based, it is GPS based, so
it works in remote areas, like ALASKA where it is considered very
successful in reducing mid air collisions.

Another feature is ADS-B is the "extended squitter" which basically
broadcasts your GPS loacation every second, whether you transponder
gets "interrogated" or not.

We recently installed a Garmin GDL 90 for a customer.........

The unit itself is huge, like two shoe boxes in size, and
heavy........costs around $8K......This is a "blind box".. It
requires additional hardware to display info, it also requires THREE
antennas..........then there is the installation cost,...it is not so
simple to install.......etc.


Cookie

On Feb 9, 4:10*am, "
wrote:
On Feb 8, 11:30*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:



Mike Schumann wrote:
But sometimes it's all not enough...
Unfortunately true. *Us pilots need all the help we can get.

Vaughn
Even if you do everything right, you can still be surprised. *A power
pilot could easily be monitoring the local CTAF frequencies on a cross
country only to unexpectedly encounter a glider who is talking on
123.3 (what power pilot would think of monitoring that???).

The only real solution is universal deployment of ADS-B on every
aircraft, including gliders, balloons, UAVs, military aircraft, etc.
With that, if you attach your ADS-B transceiver to a GPS, you will see
everybody. *No surprises. *The technology exists for ADS-B
transceivers to be available for ~$1K. *The only thing missing is the
political will in the FAA to permit this class of avionics to be
certified for VFR use. *We need to make our voices heard that we need
this NOW.

I can't find good graphics showing current ADS-B coverage, or scheduled
coverage. Can someone point out a source? A talk at the convention said
the FAA is holding well to it's installation schedule, which was good to
hear.

The July 2009 graphic I found didn't show much coverage out West, and
surprisingly, none in Colorado, so I don't trust it much.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What so you mean by "coverage"
I thought the beauty of ADS-B is that it is an "aircraft to aircraft"
based system, no ground "coverage" necessary.
The other beauty is that ADS-B is NOT radar based, it is GPS based, so
it works in remote areas, like ALASKA where it is considered very
successful in reducing mid air collisions.

Another feature is ADS-B is the "extended squitter" which basically
broadcasts your GPS loacation every second, whether you transponder
gets "interrogated" or not.

We recently installed a Garmin GDL 90 for a customer.........

The unit itself is huge, like two shoe boxes in size, and
heavy........costs around $8K......This is a "blind box".. *It
requires additional hardware to display info, it also requires THREE
antennas..........then there is the installation cost,...it is not so
simple to install.......etc.

Cookie

You need an ADS-B ground station for TIS-B (not to be confused with
Mode S TIS - completely different): so an ADS-B (either UAT or 1090ES)
receiver equipped aircraft can receive position reports based on
current SSR/transponder location of aircraft that are not equipped
with an ADS-B transmitter. Once you/the threat aircraft is outside SSR
coverage you will not "see" the threat via TIS-B. If a threat aircraft
is not equipped with a transponder you will not see it via TIS-B. You
need TIS-B during any transition to ADS-B adoption, or you will just
see other early adopters.

You also need ADS-B ground station coverage for ADS-R: the relay
between 1090ES and UAT link layers so aircraft equipped with one type
of ADS-B receiver will see the signals from an aircraft equipped with
the other transmitter type. That is a USA only peculiarity. In Europe
for example it is 1090ES only.

One confusing point as well is some ADS-B *receiver* manufactures and
less than clear that their devices are not transmitters so while you
might see other ADS-B boxes (or transponders via TIS-B) they can't see
you. Sometimes there is an implied belief that the aircraft with the
receiver has a transponder.

The Alaska trials were UAT only AFAIK and compared to large areas of
no SSR coverage and subsidized installation of UAT devices it is not
surprising it had good results. The GDL 90 was basically developed for
those trials and is showing its age. Garmin has a much more
interesting traffic solution now in the 800 series which include
active transponder interrogation (i.e. a TAS/TCAD) system combined
with ADS-B via 1090ES over Mode S (and you can pull up Mode S TIS on
the same hardware if you want need to, not sure why you would). In
Europe there are interesting combined Flarm and ADS-B 1090ES receivers
like the Garrecht 1090-TRX and PowerFlarm (not yet shipping). The
glider and GA avionics manufacturers in Europe are focusing on 1090ES
for ADS-B since Europe has mandated Mode S transponders. I expect to
see a wide variety of 1090ES and UAT devices in gliders and GA
aircraft and ADS-R relay is goign to be an important issue. i.e. think
about ground station coverage in mountainous terrain and along ridges
etc. where you can't just assume the other guy has an "ADS-B" and you
will see him. I believe that some vendors are working on dual-band (UAT
+1090ES) receivers and that may be a good thing.

Extended squitter is really a term that applies only to Mode S
transponders and in that case is the message type that carries the ADS-
B transmission.

Darryl

On Feb 9, 2:07*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Feb 9, 4:10*am, "
wrote:





On Feb 8, 11:30*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Mike Schumann wrote:
But sometimes it's all not enough...
Unfortunately true. *Us pilots need all the help we can get.

Vaughn
Even if you do everything right, you can still be surprised. *A power
pilot could easily be monitoring the local CTAF frequencies on a cross
country only to unexpectedly encounter a glider who is talking on
123.3 (what power pilot would think of monitoring that???).

The only real solution is universal deployment of ADS-B on every
aircraft, including gliders, balloons, UAVs, military aircraft, etc..
With that, if you attach your ADS-B transceiver to a GPS, you will see
everybody. *No surprises. *The technology exists for ADS-B
transceivers to be available for ~$1K. *The only thing missing is the
political will in the FAA to permit this class of avionics to be
certified for VFR use. *We need to make our voices heard that we need
this NOW.

I can't find good graphics showing current ADS-B coverage, or scheduled
coverage. Can someone point out a source? A talk at the convention said
the FAA is holding well to it's installation schedule, which was good to
hear.

The July 2009 graphic I found didn't show much coverage out West, and
surprisingly, none in Colorado, so I don't trust it much.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org-Hidequoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What so you mean by "coverage"
I thought the beauty of ADS-B is that it is an "aircraft to aircraft"
based system, no ground "coverage" necessary.
The other beauty is that ADS-B is NOT radar based, it is GPS based, so
it works in remote areas, like ALASKA where it is considered very
successful in reducing mid air collisions.

Another feature is ADS-B is the "extended squitter" which basically
broadcasts your GPS loacation every second, whether you transponder
gets "interrogated" or not.

We recently installed a Garmin GDL 90 for a customer.........

The unit itself is huge, like two shoe boxes in size, and
heavy........costs around $8K......This is a "blind box".. *It
requires additional hardware to display info, it also requires THREE
antennas..........then there is the installation cost,...it is not so
simple to install.......etc.

Cookie

You need an ADS-B ground station for TIS-B (not to be confused with
Mode S TIS - completely different): so an ADS-B (either UAT or 1090ES)
receiver equipped aircraft can receive position reports based on
current SSR/transponder location of aircraft that are not equipped
with an ADS-B transmitter. Once you/the threat aircraft is outside SSR
coverage you will not "see" the threat via TIS-B. If a threat aircraft
is not equipped with a transponder you will not see it via TIS-B. You
need TIS-B during any transition to ADS-B adoption, or you will just
see other early adopters.

You also need ADS-B ground station coverage for ADS-R: the relay
between 1090ES and UAT link layers so aircraft equipped with one type
of ADS-B receiver will see the signals from an aircraft equipped with
the other transmitter type. That is a USA only peculiarity. In Europe
for example it is 1090ES only.

One confusing point as well is some ADS-B *receiver* manufactures and
less than clear that their devices are not transmitters so while you
might see other ADS-B boxes (or transponders via TIS-B) they can't see
you. Sometimes there is an implied belief that the aircraft with the
receiver has a transponder.

The Alaska trials were UAT only AFAIK and compared to large areas of
no SSR coverage and subsidized installation of UAT devices it is not
surprising it had good results. The GDL 90 was basically developed for
those trials and is showing its age. Garmin has a much more
interesting traffic solution now in the 800 series which include
active transponder interrogation (i.e. a TAS/TCAD) system combined
with ADS-B via 1090ES over Mode S (and you can pull up Mode S TIS on
the same hardware if you want need to, not sure why you would). In
Europe there are interesting combined Flarm and ADS-B 1090ES receivers
like the Garrecht 1090-TRX and PowerFlarm (not yet shipping). The
glider and GA avionics manufacturers in Europe are focusing on 1090ES
for ADS-B since Europe has mandated Mode S transponders. I expect to
see a wide variety of 1090ES and UAT devices in gliders and GA
aircraft and ADS-R relay is goign to be an important issue. i.e. think
about ground station coverage in mountainous terrain and along ridges
etc. where you can't just assume the other guy has an "ADS-B" and you
will see him. I believe that some vendors are working on dual-band (UAT
+1090ES) receivers and that may be a good thing.

Extended squitter is really a term that applies only to Mode S
transponders and in that case is the message type that carries the ADS-
B transmission.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Darryl,

Thanks for the information.

So what's the answer? They came out with mode A, Then they needed
mode C, then mode S and then ADS-B...

It seems like every system has at least some sort of loophole it it.
By the time anything is in widespread use it seems to be obsolete
already.

Cookie

On Feb 9, 4:14*pm, "
wrote:
On Feb 9, 2:07*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Feb 9, 4:10*am, "
wrote:

On Feb 8, 11:30*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Mike Schumann wrote:
But sometimes it's all not enough...
Unfortunately true. *Us pilots need all the help we can get.

Vaughn
Even if you do everything right, you can still be surprised. *A power
pilot could easily be monitoring the local CTAF frequencies on a cross
country only to unexpectedly encounter a glider who is talking on
123.3 (what power pilot would think of monitoring that???).

The only real solution is universal deployment of ADS-B on every
aircraft, including gliders, balloons, UAVs, military aircraft, etc.
With that, if you attach your ADS-B transceiver to a GPS, you will see
everybody. *No surprises. *The technology exists for ADS-B
transceivers to be available for ~$1K. *The only thing missing is the
political will in the FAA to permit this class of avionics to be
certified for VFR use. *We need to make our voices heard that we need
this NOW.

I can't find good graphics showing current ADS-B coverage, or scheduled
coverage. Can someone point out a source? A talk at the convention said
the FAA is holding well to it's installation schedule, which was good to
hear.

The July 2009 graphic I found didn't show much coverage out West, and
surprisingly, none in Colorado, so I don't trust it much.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider..org-Hidequotedtext -

- Show quoted text -

What so you mean by "coverage"
I thought the beauty of ADS-B is that it is an "aircraft to aircraft"
based system, no ground "coverage" necessary.
The other beauty is that ADS-B is NOT radar based, it is GPS based, so
it works in remote areas, like ALASKA where it is considered very
successful in reducing mid air collisions.

Another feature is ADS-B is the "extended squitter" which basically
broadcasts your GPS loacation every second, whether you transponder
gets "interrogated" or not.

We recently installed a Garmin GDL 90 for a customer.........

The unit itself is huge, like two shoe boxes in size, and
heavy........costs around $8K......This is a "blind box".. *It
requires additional hardware to display info, it also requires THREE
antennas..........then there is the installation cost,...it is not so
simple to install.......etc.

Cookie

You need an ADS-B ground station for TIS-B (not to be confused with
Mode S TIS - completely different): so an ADS-B (either UAT or 1090ES)
receiver equipped aircraft can receive position reports based on
current SSR/transponder location of aircraft that are not equipped
with an ADS-B transmitter. Once you/the threat aircraft is outside SSR
coverage you will not "see" the threat via TIS-B. If a threat aircraft
is not equipped with a transponder you will not see it via TIS-B. You
need TIS-B during any transition to ADS-B adoption, or you will just
see other early adopters.

You also need ADS-B ground station coverage for ADS-R: the relay
between 1090ES and UAT link layers so aircraft equipped with one type
of ADS-B receiver will see the signals from an aircraft equipped with
the other transmitter type. That is a USA only peculiarity. In Europe
for example it is 1090ES only.

One confusing point as well is some ADS-B *receiver* manufactures and
less than clear that their devices are not transmitters so while you
might see other ADS-B boxes (or transponders via TIS-B) they can't see
you. Sometimes there is an implied belief that the aircraft with the
receiver has a transponder.

The Alaska trials were UAT only AFAIK and compared to large areas of
no SSR coverage and subsidized installation of UAT devices it is not
surprising it had good results. The GDL 90 was basically developed for
those trials and is showing its age. Garmin has a much more
interesting traffic solution now in the 800 series which include
active transponder interrogation (i.e. a TAS/TCAD) system combined
with ADS-B via 1090ES over Mode S (and you can pull up Mode S TIS on
the same hardware if you want need to, not sure why you would). In
Europe there are interesting combined Flarm and ADS-B 1090ES receivers
like the Garrecht 1090-TRX and PowerFlarm (not yet shipping). The
glider and GA avionics manufacturers in Europe are focusing on 1090ES
for ADS-B since Europe has mandated Mode S transponders. I expect to
see a wide variety of 1090ES and UAT devices in gliders and GA
aircraft and ADS-R relay is goign to be an important issue. i.e. think
about ground station coverage in mountainous terrain and along ridges
etc. where you can't just assume the other guy has an "ADS-B" and you
will see him. I believe that some vendors are working on dual-band (UAT
+1090ES) receivers and that may be a good thing.

Extended squitter is really a term that applies only to Mode S
transponders and in that case is the message type that carries the ADS-
B transmission.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Darryl,

Thanks for the information.

So what's the answer? *They came out with mode A, *Then they needed
mode C, then *mode S and then ADS-B...

It seems like every system has at least some sort of loophole it it.
By the time anything is in widespread use it seems to be obsolete
already.

Cookie

Technology is often obsolete before being deployed.

And the question is often not "what is the answer?". The question is
"what is the question?".
(and maybe with both Mode S and ADS-B technologies that actually
applies)

Sigh, I'm such a cynic.

Darryl