Soaring under the Bravo?

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:28:16 -0800, "BT" wrote:

mmm.. I'd be interested to know the reference for "that reg"... cause they
don't pay attention to it around here.

You ask, you get:
FAA Order 7110.65R (the ATC 'bible') Section 9 "Class B Service Area,
Terminal", para 7-9-3b. Currently they have to vector aircraft
outside the Class B and back in; with the extension they won't have
to. Please read the NOTE under b...this means they should be keeping
the aircraft at or above 5000'MSL/4200' AGL in our area....actually a
BENEFIT to us.
FYI, a "large turbine aircraft" is over 12,500 lbs...even a Beech 1900
is well over that...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7-9-3. METHODS
a. To the extent practical, clear large turbine
engine-powered airplanes to/from the primary airport
using altitudes and routes that avoid VFR corridors
and airspace below the Class B airspace floor where
VFR aircraft are operating.

NOTE- Pilots operating in accordance with VFR are expected to
advise ATC if compliance with assigned altitudes,
headings, or routes will cause violation of any part of the
CFR.

b. Vector aircraft to remain in Class B airspace
after entry. Inform the aircraft when leaving and
reentering Class B airspace if it becomes necessary to
extend the flight path outside Class B airspace for
spacing.

NOTE-
14 CFR Section 91.131 states that “Unless otherwise
authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine
engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for
which a Class B airspace area is designated must operate
at or above the designated floors of the Class B airspace
area while within the lateral limits of that area.” Such
authorization should be the exception rather than the rule.
REFERENCE FAAO 7110.65, Deviation Advisories, Para 5-1-10.

c. Aircraft departing controlled airports within
Class B airspace will be provided the same services
as those aircraft departing the primary airport.


I brought it up at a safety meeting with ATC Radar supervisor in
attendance.. and was told point blank.. we put them where we need to.

That's what what they do NOW, but once they have the extension,
apparently they will be keeping the RJs at 5K MSL overhead vs 3K MSL
(right in with the gliders) now.


I "was around" when the first "Terminal Control Areas", (TCA) now Class B
were designed.. the idea was that airliners and "jets" would enter in the
top and funnel down to the primary airport.. they would also exit out the
top. Does not happen..

Sounds like they are going back to that idea

The fuel conservation descents start the glide farther out.. instead of
"keep'em high and drop'em in"..
When landing Rwy 1 at LAS, the min Radar Vector Altitude is about 8300 right
over our airport and that's where they want to be. Class B there is 80B90
but they continue the descent down out of the bottom of Class B. Or they
have been vectored from the northeast and exit the Class B only to reenter
at the 20nm fix on final right over the glider airport.

Another stated reason for the change...they want 'em to enter the
Bravo ONCE and never leave til they take off again. ALPA is pushing
this...they want that extra "protected airspace"


The Glide Slope into LAS Rwy 1 is 3.4 degree, at 361ft per nm, 20 nm = 7220
AGL, LAS elevation is 2181, so that equates to about 9400MSL at the Class B
entry.. but ATC always has them 1000ft lower. And if ATC lets them fly a
"Visual Approach, they get down to 7K MSL.

The CLE Rwy6 ILS is a 3 degree glide slope or 318ft / nm, or at 20nm, 6360
AGL, CLE airport elev is 791MSL or at 20nm on a 3 degree glide path the
airliner would like to be at about 7100ft MSL and at 30nm at 10300MSL... so
why do they need a 50B80 all the way out to 30nm?

Considering they are dropping the RJ's down to 3K MSL at 20+ miles out
now, I figure it's for a little extra elbow room during VFR ops, +
room needed to 'set up' for PRM approach or staggered simultaneous ILS
to our close-spaced runways..

--Don
Don Byrer KJ5KB
Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy
Glider & CFI wannabe
kj5kb-at-hotmail.com

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"Watch out for those doves...smack-smack-smack-smack..."

Thanx for digging that out.

Ahh... read the fine print in 7-9-3b... "if it becomes necessary" they can
vector the aircraft out of the ClassB, they just have to tell the pilot
being vectored that they will be exiting the "Class B protection zone", and
of course they don't have to tell the pilot not talking to them that is
already outside of and avoiding the "Class B exclusion zone".

FWIW.. I used to live and die by 7110.65.. but it was a much earlier alpha
suffix.. like "C".. and it has been over 25 years..

We negotiated a waiver to 91.215 for glider operations (climb windows)
within the 30nm ModeC Veil, outside Class B, but above the ceiling of
ClassB, to get above 10,000 MSL

BT
USAF RET
Comm, ASEL, AMEL, Instrument
CFIG

"Don Byrer" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:28:16 -0800, "BT" wrote:

mmm.. I'd be interested to know the reference for "that reg"... cause they
don't pay attention to it around here.

You ask, you get:
FAA Order 7110.65R (the ATC 'bible') Section 9 "Class B Service Area,
Terminal", para 7-9-3b. Currently they have to vector aircraft
outside the Class B and back in; with the extension they won't have
to. Please read the NOTE under b...this means they should be keeping
the aircraft at or above 5000'MSL/4200' AGL in our area....actually a
BENEFIT to us.
FYI, a "large turbine aircraft" is over 12,500 lbs...even a Beech 1900
is well over that...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7-9-3. METHODS
a. To the extent practical, clear large turbine
engine-powered airplanes to/from the primary airport
using altitudes and routes that avoid VFR corridors
and airspace below the Class B airspace floor where
VFR aircraft are operating.

NOTE- Pilots operating in accordance with VFR are expected to
advise ATC if compliance with assigned altitudes,
headings, or routes will cause violation of any part of the
CFR.

b. Vector aircraft to remain in Class B airspace
after entry. Inform the aircraft when leaving and
reentering Class B airspace if it becomes necessary to
extend the flight path outside Class B airspace for
spacing.

NOTE-
14 CFR Section 91.131 states that "Unless otherwise
authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine
engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for
which a Class B airspace area is designated must operate
at or above the designated floors of the Class B airspace
area while within the lateral limits of that area." Such
authorization should be the exception rather than the rule.
REFERENCE FAAO 7110.65, Deviation Advisories, Para 5-1-10.

c. Aircraft departing controlled airports within
Class B airspace will be provided the same services
as those aircraft departing the primary airport.


I brought it up at a safety meeting with ATC Radar supervisor in
attendance.. and was told point blank.. we put them where we need to.

That's what what they do NOW, but once they have the extension,
apparently they will be keeping the RJs at 5K MSL overhead vs 3K MSL
(right in with the gliders) now.


I "was around" when the first "Terminal Control Areas", (TCA) now Class B
were designed.. the idea was that airliners and "jets" would enter in the
top and funnel down to the primary airport.. they would also exit out the
top. Does not happen..

Sounds like they are going back to that idea

The fuel conservation descents start the glide farther out.. instead of
"keep'em high and drop'em in"..
When landing Rwy 1 at LAS, the min Radar Vector Altitude is about 8300
right
over our airport and that's where they want to be. Class B there is 80B90
but they continue the descent down out of the bottom of Class B. Or they
have been vectored from the northeast and exit the Class B only to reenter
at the 20nm fix on final right over the glider airport.

Another stated reason for the change...they want 'em to enter the
Bravo ONCE and never leave til they take off again. ALPA is pushing
this...they want that extra "protected airspace"


The Glide Slope into LAS Rwy 1 is 3.4 degree, at 361ft per nm, 20 nm =
7220
AGL, LAS elevation is 2181, so that equates to about 9400MSL at the Class
B
entry.. but ATC always has them 1000ft lower. And if ATC lets them fly a
"Visual Approach, they get down to 7K MSL.

The CLE Rwy6 ILS is a 3 degree glide slope or 318ft / nm, or at 20nm, 6360
AGL, CLE airport elev is 791MSL or at 20nm on a 3 degree glide path the
airliner would like to be at about 7100ft MSL and at 30nm at 10300MSL...
so
why do they need a 50B80 all the way out to 30nm?

Considering they are dropping the RJ's down to 3K MSL at 20+ miles out
now, I figure it's for a little extra elbow room during VFR ops, +
room needed to 'set up' for PRM approach or staggered simultaneous ILS
to our close-spaced runways..

--Don
Don Byrer KJ5KB
Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy
Glider & CFI wannabe
kj5kb-at-hotmail.com

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without
bending the gear..."
"Watch out for those doves...smack-smack-smack-smack..."

Recreational and business pilots in the Chicago area were recently
informed that the current 20-25 NM radius B-airspace is proposed to be
increased all the way to the 30NM transponder veil. Comments can be
filed until January 12. The 3 area glider clubs will be impacted with
one club being located 28 NM from O'Hare. The floor of the B-airspace
will be at 4,000 MSL if this proposal should pass.

Interestingly, the justifications heard for this change match exactly
the points stated here already. Pilot members of our clubs that are
flying into Chicago City airports regularly report that ATC is
specifically advising them when exiting and re-entering B airspace -
obviously establishing records for having to do so.

Our course of action will most likely be a petition to carve out a
sector over the affected glider port or/and to request for the floor
of the outside ring to be raised to 5,000'. In any case, we will
loose quite a few of the current Northern Illinois turnpoints.
Question: Anyone knows how ATC reacts to requests to briefly
transition B-airspace on the outside border (transponder equipped
glider)? Many of our local gliders fly with transponders.

Herb Kilian, J7

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:20:15 -0800, "BT" wrote:

Thanx for digging that out.

Quite welcome...I'm sure others would like to see it anyway.

Ahh... read the fine print in 7-9-3b... "if it becomes necessary" they can
vector the aircraft out of the ClassB, they just have to tell the pilot
being vectored that they will be exiting the "Class B protection zone", and
of course they don't have to tell the pilot not talking to them that is
already outside of and avoiding the "Class B exclusion zone".

Yes....and that's what I'm told they are trying to avoid. That's two
extra exchanges btwn pilot and controller they'd like to eliminate.

We negotiated a waiver to 91.215 for glider operations (climb windows)
within the 30nm ModeC Veil, outside Class B, but above the ceiling of
ClassB, to get above 10,000 MSL

This isnt a big 'climb' area here in the flatlands...
Also, many of the guys around here that are serious soarers have their
own glider with synthesized radio, and a few have xponders.

For now, I'm a 'fun flyer' til I get my ticket...and even then I
suspect I will be happy with 1 hour flights in the club gliders; at
least in this area...my butt is only rated for 60 minutes in a blanik
L13.

--Don
Don Byrer KJ5KB
Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy
Glider & CFI wannabe
kj5kb-at-hotmail.com

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"Watch out for those doves...smack-smack-smack-smack..."

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:06:21 -0800 (PST), Herb
wrote:

Recreational and business pilots in the Chicago area were recently
informed that the current 20-25 NM radius B-airspace is proposed to be
increased all the way to the 30NM transponder veil. Comments can be
filed until January 12. The 3 area glider clubs will be impacted with
one club being located 28 NM from O'Hare. The floor of the B-airspace
will be at 4,000 MSL if this proposal should pass.

ouch...

Interestingly, the justifications heard for this change match exactly
the points stated here already. Pilot members of our clubs that are
flying into Chicago City airports regularly report that ATC is
specifically advising them when exiting and re-entering B airspace -
obviously establishing records for having to do so.

They REALLY want to decrease workload and frequency congestion...I do
understand and agree with that.

Question: Anyone knows how ATC reacts to requests to briefly
transition B-airspace on the outside border (transponder equipped
glider)? Many of our local gliders fly with transponders.

I would think it to be the same as transitioning it in any slow small
power plane. You have a radio and a transponder...if "UNABLE " they
will tell ya. Will also depend on where you are in relation to
traffic flow too. I can probably get cleared to buzz around all day
at 3K MSL NW of CLE, as the primary traffic flow is NE/SW...

Around here (CLE), in a C172, if you call up for flight following
they'll usually clear you into the Bravo, and vector you clear of
traffic.

--Don
Don Byrer KJ5KB
Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy
Glider & CFI wannabe
kj5kb-at-hotmail.com

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"Watch out for those doves...smack-smack-smack-smack..."

On Jan 4, 4:27*pm, Don Byrer wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:06:21 -0800 (PST), Herb
wrote:

Recreational and business pilots in the Chicago area were recently
informed that the current 20-25 NM radius B-airspace is proposed to be
increased all the way to the 30NM transponder veil. *

Don -
SSA got the notice on December 31, to invite glider folks to the
meetings.
It was passed to local folks in a matter of hours.

The Botsford club Pres. has had a conversation with me on Friday,
and he has a pile of information to share at the Saturday club meeting
on various items to do and how to collect data to help thwart the
shelf.

You will be quite a resource to Bruce, there. The best way to get
the outcome you want is to bash them with their own protocols.

Cleveland may be a pile of work,and it may not get a perfect outcome,
but it seems
I am having to type a lot on Airspace issues for SSA members this
month.
Cleveland and Chicago have a Class B change,, and a MOA in Nevada,
and the ADS-B NPRM.

I will post more on RAS later to get the keyboardists in line to file
comments as needed.

Thanks,

Cindy B

Who is Cindy B???

Mike Schumann

"CindyB" wrote in message
...
On Jan 4, 4:27 pm, Don Byrer wrote:
On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:06:21 -0800 (PST), Herb
wrote:

Recreational and business pilots in the Chicago area were recently
informed that the current 20-25 NM radius B-airspace is proposed to be
increased all the way to the 30NM transponder veil.

Don -
SSA got the notice on December 31, to invite glider folks to the
meetings.
It was passed to local folks in a matter of hours.

The Botsford club Pres. has had a conversation with me on Friday,
and he has a pile of information to share at the Saturday club meeting
on various items to do and how to collect data to help thwart the
shelf.

You will be quite a resource to Bruce, there. The best way to get
the outcome you want is to bash them with their own protocols.

Cleveland may be a pile of work,and it may not get a perfect outcome,
but it seems
I am having to type a lot on Airspace issues for SSA members this
month.
Cleveland and Chicago have a Class B change,, and a MOA in Nevada,
and the ADS-B NPRM.

I will post more on RAS later to get the keyboardists in line to file
comments as needed.

Thanks,

Cindy B





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cindy Brickner from Cal City.


On Jan 5, 3:04*pm, "Mike Schumann"
wrote:
Who is Cindy B???

aviationnut wrote:
Cindy Brickner from Cal City.


On Jan 5, 3:04 pm, "Mike Schumann"
wrote:
Who is Cindy B???

Cindy Brickner is also the member of the SSA Government Liaison
Committee responsible for airspace matters...

Marc

On Jan 5, 3:04 pm, "Mike Schumann"
wrote:
Who is Cindy B???

Cindy Brickner is also the member of the SSA Government Liaison
Committee responsible for airspace matters...

Marc

Hey, don't forget that Cindy is also a regional director on the board
of the SSA and has been for a long time, she also was a speaker at
many conventions, and at least year's convention, to celebrate the
75th anniversary of the SSA, she hosted a very well attended session
on "generations" in soaring. She's the Bomb in Soaring! (isn't that
what the kids say, when someone or something is really really cool?)