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Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 11th 10, 05:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Karen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 38
Default Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt

Lessons to be learned?

http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2

Join the discussion.

  #2  
Old October 11th 10, 07:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kd6veb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt

Hi Gang
I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders
be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders
turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe
Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions
but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair
between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of
a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders
mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports.
Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any
glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my
ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past
discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder
usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of
years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a
business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I
guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen.
Dave

On Oct 11, 9:54*am, Karen wrote:
Lessons to be learned?

http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2

Join the discussion.


  #3  
Old October 11th 10, 07:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Derek C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt

On Oct 11, 7:17*pm, kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang
* I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders
be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders
turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe
Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions
but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair
between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of
a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders
mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports.
Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any
glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my
ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past
discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder
usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of
years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a
business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I
guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen.
Dave

On Oct 11, 9:54*am, Karen wrote:



Lessons to be learned?


http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2


Join the discussion.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


You must be a rich Yank with more money than sense! $2500 sounds like
a small fortune to a hard up Brit. Why not get airliners to fit $300
Flarm units?

Derek C
  #4  
Old October 11th 10, 07:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Matt Herron Jr.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 548
Default Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt

On Oct 11, 11:44*am, Derek C wrote:
On Oct 11, 7:17*pm, kd6veb wrote:





Hi Gang
* I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders
be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders
turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe
Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions
but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair
between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of
a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders
mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports.
Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any
glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my
ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past
discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder
usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of
years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a
business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I
guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen.
Dave


On Oct 11, 9:54*am, Karen wrote:


Lessons to be learned?


http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2


Join the discussion.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


You must be a rich Yank with more money than sense! $2500 sounds like
a small fortune to a hard up Brit. Why not get airliners to fit $300
Flarm units?

Derek C


FLARM is short range, therefor not useful for Glider to commercial
traffic
  #5  
Old October 11th 10, 07:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Derek C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt

On Oct 11, 7:47*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:
On Oct 11, 11:44*am, Derek C wrote:





On Oct 11, 7:17*pm, kd6veb wrote:


Hi Gang
* I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders
be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders
turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe
Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions
but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair
between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of
a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders
mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports.
Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any
glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my
ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past
discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder
usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of
years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a
business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I
guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen.
Dave


On Oct 11, 9:54*am, Karen wrote:


Lessons to be learned?


http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2


Join the discussion.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


You must be a rich Yank with more money than sense! $2500 sounds like
a small fortune to a hard up Brit. Why not get airliners to fit $300
Flarm units?


Derek C


FLARM is short range, therefor not useful for Glider to commercial
traffic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


About 5 km range, so enough to take avoiding action. I note from the
article that the B737 claimed to be at 5500 ft AMSL at the time the
near miss took place and the gliders were allowed to fly transponder
free up to 5000 ft in the area, so it probably wasn't as close as the
article claimed.

Derek C
  #6  
Old October 11th 10, 08:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Peter Scholz[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt

Am 11.10.2010 20:17, kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang
I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders
be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders
turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe
Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions
but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair
between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of
a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders
mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports.
Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any
glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my
ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past
discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder
usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of
years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a
business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I
guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen.
Dave

On Oct 11, 9:54 am, wrote:
Lessons to be learned?

http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2

Join the discussion.


I happen to fly a lot in this area and know the situation quite well. A
few things should be explained to perhaps better understand the incident
report.

1. The Airport Frankfurt-Hahn is surrounded by a CTR (0/3500, Class D)
and two larger class D airspaces (3500/FL65 and 4500/FL65). Above FL65
and surounding the Class D airspace is a Class E airspace (1000 or
1700AGL/FL100)

2. All glider pilots flying in that area (regularily a few hundred) are
aware of the fact that they share the airspace with other commercial
(heavy) traffic. On the other hand, we have operate there, because there
are only small corridors left between Class C and D airspaces
sourrounding Frankurt-Main International, Frankfurt HAhn and Cologne
airports. Also this area is a thermally high active area (Hunsrück
ridge) and many XC flights go along there.

3. There are regular talks with the DFS (German ATC organisation) about
the traffic situation in that area and how things can be handled so that
safe operation of both the commercial flights and the glider operations
can be carried out. These talks have led to the installation of several
Glider sectors in the north and south corners within the Frankfurt-Hahn
Class D airspace. These sectors can be opened generally in cooperation
with Frankfurt-Hahn ATC and FIS if and when traffic permits this, and
are normaly managed by the local glider clubs. Also the situatuion of
approaching traffic to Frankfurt Hahn has been and will be discussed.

4. Apart from that glider pilots can request individual clearances from
FIS (e.g. during the week) for crossing of certain areas in the Class D
airspace.This is normally granted, if and when traffic permits this.
Normlly, there is no transponder needed for this clearance, just radion
contact with FIS will normally suffice.

5. There is NO transponder mandatory zone in that area, also no
transponder mandatory above 5000 ft for gliders in Airspace Class E!

6. It has been noted in the last few years, as the operations of Ryan
Air increased in Germany, that there have been several incidents reports
like the one mentioned, especially from that specific carrier. We (the
glider community) suspect that Ryan Air tries to get more "protected"
airspace by blaming the gliders operating in their vinciity, althouh
those glider pilots behave totally legal.

7. Nevertheless a glider pilot operating near Frankfurt Hahn is strongly
advised (and I do this myself regularily) to inform FIS via radio
contact of his presence in taht area, so that traffic information can be
passed on the the approaching traffic.

In conclusion: We (the XC glider pilots) are aware of the situation and
operate accordingly. We expect the same of the commercial traffic using
the Class E airspace, where also for IFR traffic the rule "see and be
seen" is to obey.

--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE

  #7  
Old October 11th 10, 08:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt

On 10/11/2010 11:44 AM, Derek C wrote:
You must be a rich Yank with more money than sense! $2500 sounds like
a small fortune to a hard up Brit. Why not get airliners to fit $300
Flarm units?

Where do you get $300 FLARM units? But, that's not the problem, really -
the airliner requires certified equipment. It would be much quicker,
easier, more effective, and cheaper (for the airline company) to talk
the airline companies into putting those $2500 transponders into gliders
flying in that area. $100,000 - problem solved in one month.

The transponders could be leased to the pilots - it's not necessary for
it to be a gift. Could you afford $200/year to have a transponder in
your glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

  #8  
Old October 11th 10, 09:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt

On Oct 11, 11:44*am, Derek C wrote:
On Oct 11, 7:17*pm, kd6veb wrote:



Hi Gang
* I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders
be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders
turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe
Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions
but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair
between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of
a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders
mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports.
Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any
glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my
ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past
discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder
usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of
years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a
business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I
guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen.
Dave


On Oct 11, 9:54*am, Karen wrote:


Lessons to be learned?


http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2


Join the discussion.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


You must be a rich Yank with more money than sense! $2500 sounds like
a small fortune to a hard up Brit. Why not get airliners to fit $300
Flarm units?

Derek C


Just maybe Dave is an experience pilot who flies in an area where
there is high density of glider, airline and fast jet traffic and he
is experienced enough across gliders and power aircraft to know how
the ATC system works and how much traffic is out there where he flies.
He flies and lives in are area were we have had an actual glider-fast
jet mid-air collisions (I was flying there that day) and close calls
with airliners. In addition to encouraging transponder adoption the
local glider community, lead by PASCO, has also worked with the local
ATC operation on both awareness and developing radio and operational
procedures to help keep gliders separated from airliners and fast jet
traffic.

If glider pilots choose to fly near areas of high-density airline and
fast-jet traffic without a transponder and the decision would only
affect their safety then I'd have no problem in anybody doing whatever
they want. But introducing the dynamics of airliners full of
passengers being exposed to mid-air risk and I have a real problem
with people choosing to fly in those areas without transponders -- and
especially about glider pilots complaining about the cost of
transponders. Presumably there are other places people can fly with
less destiny.

And I'm not convinced that "its not a mandatory transponder zone"
excludes pilots from the need to equip with transponders. (switching
to the USA...) In the USA we have key areas of glider activity that do
not require transponders but just call out for transponder usage in
gliders, and we seem to have significant variance across those
locations with attitudes to and carriage of transponders. If pilots
take the attitude that they don't want to adopt transponders in those
areas then the best outcome I can see is for the FAA to require
mandatory local use. I'd much rather see that than a nation wide
removal of the transponder exemption for gliders.

The Flarm suggestion and if made to airlines or government regulatory
agencies would just show up the glider community as clueless. Any
suggestion to stick something like FLARM in a transport category
cockpit is laughable. Unlike TCAS II Flarm does not provide resolution
advisories. The TCAS II (ACAS II on your side of the pond) systems
need to provide a single situation view/command to the pilot. You
can't have FLARM triggering a warning and TCAS or the ground
controllers not being aware of it or situations where a crew decides
to manoeuvre because of a threat the ground controller cannot see of
Flarm. Even if fully integrated all the Flarm threat could likely do
is prompt the crew where to look, not much help if descending through
clouds with gliders hiding underneath etc. Only TCAS II allows/
requires a pilot to ignore a controllers direction -- no regulator is
going to be willing to allow an uncertified flarm box in a threat
aircraft issuing correct data and having an airliner TCAS+Flarm system
issue an RA. Integrating Flarm with TCAS would cost millions and would
suck a small company like Flarm dry and kill the innovation they have.
The practical answer is simply to install a transponder -- it is the
only technology compatible with TCAS and ground based SSR systems. And
in Europe many of the Mode S transponders available now give you a
path to 1090ES data-out. Not something you may ever want but maybe a
nice option in future, and it means the boxes have a long useful life
ahead of them.

Darryl



  #9  
Old October 11th 10, 09:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,403
Default Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt

On Oct 11, 12:22*pm, Peter Scholz
wrote:
Am 11.10.2010 20:17, kd6veb wrote:

Hi Gang
* *I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders
be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders
turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe
Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions
but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair
between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of
a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders
mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports.
Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any
glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my
ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past
discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder
usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of
years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a
business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I
guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen.
Dave


On Oct 11, 9:54 am, *wrote:
Lessons to be learned?


http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2


Join the discussion.


I happen to fly a lot in this area and know the situation quite well. A
few things should be explained to perhaps better understand the incident
report.

1. The Airport Frankfurt-Hahn is surrounded by a CTR (0/3500, Class D)
and two larger class D airspaces (3500/FL65 and 4500/FL65). Above FL65
and *surounding the Class D airspace is a Class E airspace (1000 or
1700AGL/FL100)

2. All glider pilots flying in that area (regularily a few hundred) are
aware of the fact that they share the airspace with other commercial
(heavy) traffic. On the other hand, we have operate there, because there
are only small corridors left between Class C and D airspaces
sourrounding Frankurt-Main International, Frankfurt HAhn and Cologne
airports. Also this area is a thermally high active area (Hunsrück
ridge) and many XC flights go along there.

3. There are regular talks with the DFS (German ATC organisation) about
the traffic situation in that area and how things can be handled so that
safe operation of both the commercial flights and the glider operations
can be carried out. These talks have led to the installation of several
Glider sectors in the north and south corners within the Frankfurt-Hahn
Class D airspace. These sectors can be opened generally in cooperation
with Frankfurt-Hahn ATC and FIS if and when traffic permits this, and
are normaly managed by the local glider clubs. *Also the situatuion of
approaching traffic to Frankfurt Hahn has been and will be discussed.

4. Apart from that glider pilots can request individual clearances from
FIS (e.g. during the week) for crossing of certain areas in the Class D
airspace.This is normally granted, if and when traffic permits this.
Normlly, there is no transponder needed for this clearance, just radion
contact with FIS will normally suffice.

5. There is NO transponder mandatory zone in that area, also no
transponder mandatory above 5000 ft for gliders in Airspace Class E!

6. It has been noted in the last few years, as the operations of Ryan
Air increased in Germany, that there have been several incidents reports
like the one mentioned, especially from that specific carrier. We (the
glider community) suspect that Ryan Air tries to get more "protected"
airspace by blaming the gliders operating in their vinciity, althouh
those glider pilots behave totally legal.

7. Nevertheless a glider pilot operating near Frankfurt Hahn is strongly
advised (and I do this myself regularily) to inform FIS via radio
contact of his presence in taht area, so that traffic information can be
passed on the the approaching traffic.

In conclusion: We (the XC glider pilots) are aware of the situation and
operate accordingly. We expect the same of the commercial traffic using
the Class E airspace, where also for IFR traffic the *rule "see and be
seen" is to obey.

--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE


Of all the very well laid out points above (including the critical
point of working with the local ATC organizations) I would have hoped
to see a point about about glider pilots being "strongly advised" to
adopt transponders.

Unfortunately "see and avoid" alone as a traffic separation mechanism
between gliders and fast-jets/airliners ultimately comes down to
wishful thinking. Eventually the idea that see and avoid alone is
going to prevent a collision between airliners/fast jets and gliders
is going to just fail. And putting aside the little point of moral
responsibility to the airline passengers, what does the glider
community think is going to happen to soaring in their country/region
when an airliner does collide with a non-transponder equipped glider?

And this should not be a surprise to any of us. Gliders are just
exceedingly hard to see and airliner cockpits are very busy places.
The two just do not mix well.


Darryl
  #10  
Old October 11th 10, 10:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Peter Scholz[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Aug 6th B738 and Glider Near Miss. Frankfurt

Am 11.10.2010 22:55, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 11, 12:22 pm, Peter
wrote:
Am 11.10.2010 20:17, kd6veb wrote:

Hi Gang
I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders
be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders
turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe
Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions
but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair
between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of
a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders
mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports.
Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any
glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my
ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past
discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder
usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of
years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a
business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I
guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen.
Dave


On Oct 11, 9:54 am, wrote:
Lessons to be learned?


http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2


Join the discussion.


I happen to fly a lot in this area and know the situation quite well. A
few things should be explained to perhaps better understand the incident
report.

1. The Airport Frankfurt-Hahn is surrounded by a CTR (0/3500, Class D)
and two larger class D airspaces (3500/FL65 and 4500/FL65). Above FL65
and surounding the Class D airspace is a Class E airspace (1000 or
1700AGL/FL100)

2. All glider pilots flying in that area (regularily a few hundred) are
aware of the fact that they share the airspace with other commercial
(heavy) traffic. On the other hand, we have operate there, because there
are only small corridors left between Class C and D airspaces
sourrounding Frankurt-Main International, Frankfurt HAhn and Cologne
airports. Also this area is a thermally high active area (Hunsrück
ridge) and many XC flights go along there.

3. There are regular talks with the DFS (German ATC organisation) about
the traffic situation in that area and how things can be handled so that
safe operation of both the commercial flights and the glider operations
can be carried out. These talks have led to the installation of several
Glider sectors in the north and south corners within the Frankfurt-Hahn
Class D airspace. These sectors can be opened generally in cooperation
with Frankfurt-Hahn ATC and FIS if and when traffic permits this, and
are normaly managed by the local glider clubs. Also the situatuion of
approaching traffic to Frankfurt Hahn has been and will be discussed.

4. Apart from that glider pilots can request individual clearances from
FIS (e.g. during the week) for crossing of certain areas in the Class D
airspace.This is normally granted, if and when traffic permits this.
Normlly, there is no transponder needed for this clearance, just radion
contact with FIS will normally suffice.

5. There is NO transponder mandatory zone in that area, also no
transponder mandatory above 5000 ft for gliders in Airspace Class E!

6. It has been noted in the last few years, as the operations of Ryan
Air increased in Germany, that there have been several incidents reports
like the one mentioned, especially from that specific carrier. We (the
glider community) suspect that Ryan Air tries to get more "protected"
airspace by blaming the gliders operating in their vinciity, althouh
those glider pilots behave totally legal.

7. Nevertheless a glider pilot operating near Frankfurt Hahn is strongly
advised (and I do this myself regularily) to inform FIS via radio
contact of his presence in taht area, so that traffic information can be
passed on the the approaching traffic.

In conclusion: We (the XC glider pilots) are aware of the situation and
operate accordingly. We expect the same of the commercial traffic using
the Class E airspace, where also for IFR traffic the rule "see and be
seen" is to obey.

--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE


Of all the very well laid out points above (including the critical
point of working with the local ATC organizations) I would have hoped
to see a point about about glider pilots being "strongly advised" to
adopt transponders.

Unfortunately "see and avoid" alone as a traffic separation mechanism
between gliders and fast-jets/airliners ultimately comes down to
wishful thinking. Eventually the idea that see and avoid alone is
going to prevent a collision between airliners/fast jets and gliders
is going to just fail. And putting aside the little point of moral
responsibility to the airline passengers, what does the glider
community think is going to happen to soaring in their country/region
when an airliner does collide with a non-transponder equipped glider?

And this should not be a surprise to any of us. Gliders are just
exceedingly hard to see and airliner cockpits are very busy places.
The two just do not mix well.


Darryl


Darryl,

in Germany, for many years because of the pure separation of commercial
traffic and gliders by the different airspace they use, there was no
need for transponders in gliders.

In the last years, this has changed a bit, as more and more airports are
beeing used by commercial carriers that serve the German market on top
of the traditional "state airline" Lufthansa, and more and more
restricted airspaces appear on the maps. You see more transponders in
gliders now, and there are talks about making them mandatory.

In fact, the Netherlands have tried to do this, but have after a few
weeks asked the glider pilots to switch them off again near some major
airports, because ATC just had a black cloud on there radar screens...

But ambitioned XC pilots have more possibilities with transponders,
because it is possible to get clearances for airspace that otherwise
would not be usable by a glider, so if you have the money and the
ambition, you'll get a transponder sooner or later.

I think it will take some more years to make it common for XC flights,,
but we try to avoid to make it mandatory, as it would make the
traditional glider instruction in clubs a lot more expensive, many clubs
wouldnT survive this. It's not only € 2000 for the transpionder itself,
you have to get it installed and certified for each glider. This would
exceed the value of many gliders used in training nowadays.

--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE
 




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