737 vs glider

Funny you mention STAR's. Dingo is a point 10 miles NW of El Tiro gliderport and most traffic comes right over the top of us on the 115 degree heading. El Tiro has been operating sailplanes for 34 years. Victor 105 and Victor 16 are both to our west and east and would go a long way to deconflict traffic. .

Dingo 5 arrival
https://resources.globalair.com/dtpp...00430dingo.pdf

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 10:36:08 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 8:15:59 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Anyone have more details about it? In particular, was the glider equipped with transponder? This is not good rep for us, but could have been worse..
https://thepointsguy.com/2017/09/uni...00000080461661

Ramy


Found it. 19:45 UTC at 7075'MSL, 10 mi NE of Rockford, IL. ASH-26E topping out in a thermal and 737 exiting a brief hold - same altitude and the same location within a mile or less as near as I can tell.

There's only one flight posted on OLC for the Chicago area today. If there was buddy flying I guess it could have been the other one.

Andy Blackburn
9B

So early days, and little hard information, I do hope we find out that glider involved (if it was even this ASH26E, or even a glider at all) had a working transponder and there is more to this story.

It's easy to just think of the distance to (very busy) Class B and C airspace here and for that reason alone I would hope pilots flying cross country in that general area would make a decision to equip with transponders.

But in addition to general proximity to Class B and C airspace it's also useful to be aware of traffic routes feeding that airspace, and in this situation, the location Andy suspects lies close to a VOR, under a victor airway, and on a O'Hare STAR route. You can see hold locations marked on the enroute chart near the Janesville VOR https://skyvector.com/?ll=42.4454992...art=428&zoom=3. Looking at those IFR charts is a good starting point to seeing what is likely to be around.

The Janesville Eight STAR (https://www.airnav.com/airport/ord) into O'Hare puts aircraft near where the ASH25E seems to have been, at the same altitude range. There should be no surprise there is IFR traffic, fast jets and airliners there and because of that a practical need for transponders for gliders who are flying at those altitudes in that area.

Anyhow posting these enroute and STAR examples are intended to encourage pilots to do some research and be aware of traffic routes around busy airspace they fly near. Don't forget to look at SID routes as well. I hope all that and much more is know to folks locally near where this occurred, and I still hope we find any glider involved actually had a transponder and it was being used.

It will be interesting to hear more details. This happened over Beloit Wisconsin, where there is a glider operation, so it was likely a Beloit-based glider.

Other Chicago operations -- Chicago Glider, Sky Soaring, and Hinckley -- are much closer to O'hare class A. When I flew out of each, attention to this issue was intense. Sky soaring especially operates frequently on the edge of class B, so we watched for traffic coming out our going in the side of class B. Transponders are very common in these close-in operations. Chicago glider club flies near the common southwest approach over the Joliet VFR, near the edge of MDW class C, and transponders are pretty much universal. Flying there we often saw 737s take gentle turns to avoid a thermal, alerted to us via Transponders.

Reports from Chicago say it was an excellent day for soaring with much higher altitudes than usual, around 7,000'. Still, what was a O'hare bound jet doing that low, in class E airspace, that far out? Airline pilots, is this a common route and practice? It would seem that staying above 10,000' until quite near the massive Ohare Class B would be prudent!

Chicago airspace is full of light aircraft. Gliders are a small part of the traffic. It always puzzled me flying from Chicago Glider, and puzzles me now as a Southwest passenger, just why the approach to Midway lets down to highly congested class E airspace under 10,000' way outside of the Class B or C and then motors on through swatting the proverbial bugs off the wingtips as they come in. It's nice for me to review all my old landing sites from close up, but I don't think that's what they had in mind.

John Cochrane

Still, what was a O'hare bound jet doing that low, in class E airspace,
that far out? Airline pilots, is this a common route and practice? It would
seem that staying above 10,000' until quite near the massive Ohare Class B
would be prudent!

Indulging in spitting into the wind, am I the only one who remembers one
"justification" for "the inverted wedding cakes" being extended so high, the
"promise" that ATC would route all commercial arriving (departing) traffic
into (out-of) the top of each wedding cake? I didn't believe it then, and
years of soaring in the vicinity of (first) Stapleton (and then) DIA further
disabused me of the notion there was any hint of reality in that "promise."

Today's "typical routings" of commercial traffic in the vicinity of every
"inverted wedding cake" with which I'm vaguely familiar (Denver, Dulles, LAX,
SF) might well make a reasonable person wonder why the "operational fiction"
of inverted wedding cakes still exists given "typical airline
arrival/departure routing realities." Yeah, I imagine "operational
flexibility" is a wonderful concept if you're a harried ATC person...but
darned if there aren't devils in those pesky details. Witness (say) ADSB, a
wonderful concept whose implementational details have been discussed so
patiently on this forum for years, now. Here we are, less than 3 years away
from "full USA ADSB coverage" and undoubtedly every aircraft owner, pilot and
installation tech is completely up to speed with every important aspect of
today's ADSB market offerings? (Quiz to follow...)

Bob - sigh - W.

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On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 2:06:33 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
It will be interesting to hear more details. This happened over Beloit Wisconsin, where there is a glider operation, so it was likely a Beloit-based glider.

Other Chicago operations -- Chicago Glider, Sky Soaring, and Hinckley -- are much closer to O'hare class A. When I flew out of each, attention to this issue was intense. Sky soaring especially operates frequently on the edge of class B, so we watched for traffic coming out our going in the side of class B. Transponders are very common in these close-in operations. Chicago glider club flies near the common southwest approach over the Joliet VFR, near the edge of MDW class C, and transponders are pretty much universal. Flying there we often saw 737s take gentle turns to avoid a thermal, alerted to us via Transponders.

Reports from Chicago say it was an excellent day for soaring with much higher altitudes than usual, around 7,000'. Still, what was a O'hare bound jet doing that low, in class E airspace, that far out? Airline pilots, is this a common route and practice? It would seem that staying above 10,000' until quite near the massive Ohare Class B would be prudent!

Chicago airspace is full of light aircraft. Gliders are a small part of the traffic. It always puzzled me flying from Chicago Glider, and puzzles me now as a Southwest passenger, just why the approach to Midway lets down to highly congested class E airspace under 10,000' way outside of the Class B or C and then motors on through swatting the proverbial bugs off the wingtips as they come in. It's nice for me to review all my old landing sites from close up, but I don't think that's what they had in mind.

John Cochrane

Flight originated at Sky Soaring (as marked on the SeeYou database).

I put the two flight traces together in Google Earth. Here's a link to some imagery.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...E4wTkxheHU4bFU

Looks like the two aircraft first started evasive maneuvers at around 19:44:24 UTC with the 737 at the ASH-26E's 10 o'clock or so and no more than a few dozen feet difference in reported altitude. The glider dove off a 150 feet or so to the north and the 737 climbed a similar amount and passed each other with maybe 500' horizontally 8-10 seconds later. Without the evasive maneuvers it looks to me like a coin flip whether the two would have hit each other - the 737 went right through the middle of the thermal and the altitudes were within measurement error. Obviously the pilots will have a lot more to say about that.

I'd repeat what Darryl said about transponders and knowing arrival/departure routes.

Andy

The Southwest aircraft descend early because they are going into Chicago Midway and O'hare runs the show. Same thing happens at Dallas Love and DFW. When ATC builds the arrivals (STARs) and departures (SIDS) the big airports get priority, the smaller (Midway, Love) airports have their terminal procedures built around them. Early descents WELL outside of the Class B airspace is very normal and required to get under/around the traffic going into the major airports. Any clubs that operate near B and busy C airspace should have a committee that meets occasionally with the ATC folks, dialogue goes a long way. We (TSA) notify ATC every time we fly and a note is attached to the Love Field ATIS/AWOS describing glider operations south of the class B.

Knowing the arrival points and typical altitudes should be common and required knowledge of all club members. On another note, 500' separation is all ATC is required between IFR and VFR aircraft. If your not accustomed to a 500' pass it will appear very, very close. When I fly alone during the week I monitor the appropriate Regional Approach frequency just for situational awareness, I have a transponder, ATC sees me and I hear them occasionally move IFR traffic around me. Some of the passes are no more than 500', but legal.

WR

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 1:35:54 PM UTC-7, LOV2AV8 wrote:
Funny you mention STAR's. Dingo is a point 10 miles NW of El Tiro gliderport and most traffic comes right over the top of us on the 115 degree heading. El Tiro has been operating sailplanes for 34 years. Victor 105 and Victor 16 are both to our west and east and would go a long way to deconflict traffic. .

Dingo 5 arrival
https://resources.globalair.com/dtpp...00430dingo.pdf

In the Pinal Airpark and El Tiro area you are closer to actual ILS arrivals and departures so more need to look at those as well and you'll notice for example ILS approaches going to the TACUB fix kind of between El Tiro and Pinal Airpark. That may be part of the ATC concern here, and I who knows what the Air Force traffic is doing in that area. All good things to hear from the ATC folks.

You can go to https://www.aopa.org/airports/TUS and download a combined PDF of all the approaches plates, STARs etc. that makes it easy to review.

You can also look up any fix etc. location at from the FAA e.g. https://nfdc.faa.gov/nfdcApps/servic...eyw ord=TACUB

And add those fixed to Google earth or SeeYou etc. to help visualize things while looking at the procedures.

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 2:51:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
The Southwest aircraft descend early because they are going into Chicago Midway and O'hare runs the show. Same thing happens at Dallas Love and DFW.. When ATC builds the arrivals (STARs) and departures (SIDS) the big airports get priority, the smaller (Midway, Love) airports have their terminal procedures built around them. Early descents WELL outside of the Class B airspace is very normal and required to get under/around the traffic going into the major airports. Any clubs that operate near B and busy C airspace should have a committee that meets occasionally with the ATC folks, dialogue goes a long way. We (TSA) notify ATC every time we fly and a note is attached to the Love Field ATIS/AWOS describing glider operations south of the class B.

Knowing the arrival points and typical altitudes should be common and required knowledge of all club members. On another note, 500' separation is all ATC is required between IFR and VFR aircraft. If your not accustomed to a 500' pass it will appear very, very close. When I fly alone during the week I monitor the appropriate Regional Approach frequency just for situational awareness, I have a transponder, ATC sees me and I hear them occasionally move IFR traffic around me. Some of the passes are no more than 500', but legal.

WR

It was a United flight that landed on 09L at O'Hare. Don't know if that changes things or not. It was maybe 300' vertical separation after everyone evaded. The trajectories looked like they were headed for zero separation in altitude. The horizontal separation was anywhere from 0 to a few hundred feet - half a thermal width or less.

I can't Imagine ATC would do that on purpose with a circling glider that's climbing, but maybe that's not what you meant.

Andy

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 2:06:33 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:

Still, what was a O'hare bound jet doing that low, in class E airspace, that far out? Airline pilots, is this a common route and practice? It would seem that staying above 10,000' until quite near the massive Ohare Class B would be prudent!

Likely flying a "standard approach" (STAR) into O'Hare. It is really important we don't think fast jets and airliners are only found in Class A, B and C airspace.

Maybe a useful reminder that the midair collision of the ASG29 and Hawker 800 happened around 30 nautical miles from the edge of Reno Class C Airspace.. Out if good old Class E. The Hawker 800 had just left Class A, and was contacting Reno Approach and would have been talking a Mustang VOR route into Reno.

"Oh sure but that's a private jet, an airliner on the other hand..." Bzzzt no. Just an example in that area airliners landing flying approaches into Reno often fly under gliders flying out of the Truckee area. All in Class E airspace.

I wanted to mention Reno again because it's the poster child for transponder use (and I'm always been impressed with most pilot attitudes and PASCO efforts etc. to encourage transponder use there), but many other locations also have traffic issues where pilots likely should be using transponders, and I'd hate for pilots to not think that through carefully and only assume the problem exists at Reno.

Andy, No my 500' comment was not about this incident which was obviously last second maneuvering to avoid a midair or very near midair. Just saying that if you have a "close encounter" it may be legal and orchestrated by ATC.. I believe that some in the past have filed " near miss" reports that may have been under the full control of ATC and filing a report does nothing good for soaring.