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  #1  
Old July 20th 08, 04:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 472
Default Orphaned Engine

Most Experts Aren’t. That's something the late Smokey Yunick said
back when I was a seaman deuce. Every month my mail delivers one or
two messages saying it's still true. The messages usually come from
some superbly experienced fellow who has literally spent his life
working on cars or trucks. He is the Local Guru when it comes to
engines for homebuilts and he's taking the time to let me know that
the automotive engineers I like to cite in my articles aren't quite as
bright as I seem to think they are, offering an experience-based
example to prove his point.

Unfortunately, the offered example invariably deals with cars or
trucks, things in which the fellow has a life-time of experience,
whereas automotive in the sense used here, does not, although it could
include them. To an engineer, automotive means something that can move
under its own power. Like an oil tanker, the Space Shuttle, or a gold
dredger.

My usual reaction is to hit the delete key. I get more mail than I
want, most from people with real problem, some of whom I can help. But
it's always sad to hear smart people say dumb things. And on the
whole, these are smart people, even though a life-time of experience
hasn't tipped him off that we're taking about two different meanings
for automotive.

We all start out pretty dumb. As we age we gather information and gain
experience and, assuming a fair share of native wit, we end up a bit
smarter than when we began. Mebbe all this guy needs is a nudge in the
right direction. So you say hello and the odds are the fellow is
having the same problems as everyone else except he was a bit too
proud to say so.

With this type of Expert you'll often discover his life-time of
experience has been with just one type of engine or perhaps one type
of car and he has been trying to transfer that experience to a Corvair
or a Volkswagen and isn't having much luck. I mean, who ever heard of
a head torqued to only eighteen foot-pounds! That has to be wrong...
right?

If the fellow hasn't figured out the meaning of automotive there's a
good chance he won't have any idea in the blue-eyed world about Class
of Service but a good understanding here is the real key to a
successful conversion so you give it a shot.

A car or light truck uses a variable speed, high-rpm, low-torque
engine whose nominal output approximates 25% of its peak output.
Nominal output is defined as the amount of power the engine was
designed to deliver for approximately 98% of its service life. The
only time it’s expected to produce more… that wayward 2%… is when
accelerating or climbing a hill. Once on the flats -- once you've
reached a Stable State of cruise -- the figures are a good match. For
hilly regions vehicle manufacturers offer different ratios for the
rear-ends. Economy takes a hit but over-all, the figures match up.
Respect an engine's Class of Service and you'll be rewarded with 2,000
to 5,000 hours between overhauls.

You can always demand more output from either type of engine but
doing so will reduce it's service life. With a converted VW, for
example, your Mean Time Before Failure will typically fall from about
2,000 hours in vehicular service to about 200 hours when powering a
plane.

By comparison, an aircraft engine is a single-speed, low-rpm, high-
torque engine whose nominal output approximates 75% of its peak
output. Peak output may be defined further as maximum sustainable
output, and as Peak-sub I, meaning an instantaneous value or dyno
blip, something you might use to impress the newbies.

Since our goal is to produce thrust throuigh the rotation of a
propeller, our primary interest is in the amount of torque that
appears in the crank, and in the propeller's efficiency at a given
rpm. The measurement of thrust is quite simple and articles describing
different types of homebuilt thrust stands have appeared in the
literature and on the internet. You will note that horsepower, which
serves no useful function at this stage, has not been mentioned.

It usually takes an exchange of half a dozen messages or thereabouts
to arrive at this point, if in fact we arrive at all. In the
overwhelming majority of cases the Local Expert simply vanishes. Which
is doubly unfortunate because the best is yet to come.

When we convert an auto engine for use in an airplane we are trying to
convert it from one Class of Operation to another to make it more
suitable, usually in the area of mechanical reliability. By
comparison, the typical flying Volkswagen starts out as a marginally
suitable auto engine that is then made even less suitable for aircraft
use by turning it into a hot-rod enigine. Why? Usually because the
person doing the conversion has little understanding of an aircraft
powerplant. Indeed, most such experts are merely the local Guru grown
old, selling dune buggy engines to the kiddies. And after all, it
does fly the plane, right?

So why even bother.

Well.... because we should. A properly built engine is more
efficient. It produces the required torque at a lower rpm and wear
increases exponentially with rpm. That means a properly built engine
uses less fuel to deliver the same thrust and last longer, too.

But a properly built engine is also a lot less expensive to build and
nowdays that's becoming a critical factor.

See that chart down there? The one title BORE VS STROKE? (It's
embedded in the article in the blog; you guys on r.a.h. will have to
go dig it out and print yourself a copy.) The chart shows the bore &
stroke combinations for most common conversions and for everything
using 88mm jugs or larger, or a 78 mm or longer crank, is going to
have to machine the crankcase & heads to match. What they'll end up
with is a dune-buggy combination -- a high-rpm engine that produces
most of its torque up high. Itty-bitty toothpick of a prop. Not very
efficient at all. Lots of machining to do. Lots of tricky bits to go
wrong during assembly... which is why some folks don't even offer the
thing assembled.

But it's all a bit of a joke because no matter HOW BIG the engine,
it's MAXIMUM SUSTAINABLE OUTPUT is going to be between 35hp and 45hp.

Yeah, I know -- everybody is selling 80hp and up. Which is a dyno
blip, not a steady output. Lotsa cubes is going to get you out of the
weeds quicker but once you get the puppy cleaned up you're flying
behind your basic 40hp engine, depending on the local atmosphere.

The limitation has to do with the heads, not the displacement. The
cylinder heads only provide enough fin-area to manage the waste-heat
from about 40hp. Unless its nice and cold or you are nice & high.
But the dune crowd only knows how to build big-bore strokers.

Now go take anohter look at that chart. Limit your jugs to the stock
85.5mm.s and your cranshaft to a 78mm. At those sizes there's NO
MACHINING REQUIRED. Your displacement is 1791cc, your maximum
SUSTAINABLE output is about 45hp and your peak torque is going to come
in at about 2800rpm.

Did I mention that no machining is required?

You've altered your cam timing but you're running a stock cam or a
Schneider 'chugger,' the one used in the orchard-blower engine.
You're running SINGLE PORT HEADS... because you're now an airplane
engine, not a hot-rod. Your Volumetric Efficiency is pushing 70% and
you're about a $1000 dollars ahead of the game because you haven't had
to buy all that machining and you're using a higher percentage of
stock, off the shelf parts. You're also running a longer, more
efficient prop -- hopefully one you've carved yourself.

The thing starts on the first flip because it has an efficient
ignition system, one that automatically adjusts itself to the load and
a 20A. electrical system. But no starter, please. As it is, it
weighs about twenty pounds less than any engine offered by anyone
else.

But of course, it's not a dune-buggy engine. And the Instant Experts
will stand in line to damn it with faint praise for that fact alone
even while it flys circles around them and is still going strong when
they're doing their second valve job of the year.

In my opinion, this is the perfect engine for an aerodynamically clean
single-seater, like Bruce Kings little beauty. Had fate dealt me a
different hand, that's what it would be going into. It would also be
a good match for a KR-1, the early Jodel, Druine, the Teenie Two and
similar designs.

Kill the parent, you got orphans. And that applies to engines, too.

-R.S.Hoover
  #2  
Old July 20th 08, 02:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
Stealth Pilot[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 846
Default Orphaned Engine

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:05:36 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


The thing starts on the first flip because it has an efficient
ignition system, one that automatically adjusts itself to the load and
a 20A. electrical system. But no starter, please. As it is, it
weighs about twenty pounds less than any engine offered by anyone
else.


the local vw powered Druine D3 turbulent has a starter.
there is a light weight ring gear added to the front of the engine. it
is a lightweight one welded to a disc that bolts in behind the prop.
the ring gear is from a japanese car, I forget which one.
the starter mounts in a simple bracket that bolts in place of the car
engine fuel pump. the starter turns over the 1600cc engine quite
easily.
the starter motor is a replacement for a large bmw motorcycle.
the overall weight of the setup isnt much.
it has been quite reliable so far.
Stealth Pilot


But of course, it's not a dune-buggy engine. And the Instant Experts
will stand in line to damn it with faint praise for that fact alone
even while it flys circles around them and is still going strong when
they're doing their second valve job of the year.

In my opinion, this is the perfect engine for an aerodynamically clean
single-seater, like Bruce Kings little beauty. Had fate dealt me a
different hand, that's what it would be going into. It would also be
a good match for a KR-1, the early Jodel, Druine, the Teenie Two and
similar designs.

Kill the parent, you got orphans. And that applies to engines, too.

-R.S.Hoover


  #3  
Old July 20th 08, 03:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 472
Default Orphaned Engine

Adding a starter is a trivial chore but on a properly assembled engine
there is no need to do so unless the engine is mounted on a pylon,
geared, or the prop is otherwise remove from easy access. With a
suitable ignition system the engine starts as easily as a lawn-mower
and will continue to run so long as their is fuel and air, unless it
is shut off..

Some conversions, such as the Aero-vee, use an ignition system having
a single, fixed firing point. The engine will not start unless
rotated at about 300rpm, making a starter motor a necessity. Others
use a belted or geared drive having such a high ratio that hand-
propping is impractical..

When all elements of an electrical starting system are included, the
weight can be as much as forty pounds more than for a hand-propped
engine.
  #4  
Old July 20th 08, 03:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 472
Default Orphaned Engine

PING Phlsti

Please contact me with a valid email address. Your question(s) need
clarification in one area but are generally too long to justify a
general post.

-R.S.Hoover
  #5  
Old July 21st 08, 03:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 56
Default Orphaned Engine

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:03:32 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Adding a starter is a trivial chore but on a properly assembled engine
there is no need to do so unless the engine is mounted on a pylon,
geared, or the prop is otherwise remove from easy access. With a
suitable ignition system the engine starts as easily as a lawn-mower
and will continue to run so long as their is fuel and air, unless it
is shut off..

Some conversions, such as the Aero-vee, use an ignition system having
a single, fixed firing point. The engine will not start unless
rotated at about 300rpm, making a starter motor a necessity. Others
use a belted or geared drive having such a high ratio that hand-
propping is impractical..

When all elements of an electrical starting system are included, the
weight can be as much as forty pounds more than for a hand-propped
engine.


But to run a starter, no electrical "system" is required. Just a
battery capable of cranking the engine over a few times. Recharge it
when you park the plane.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
  #6  
Old July 21st 08, 08:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 472
Default Orphaned Engine


But to run a starter, no electrical "system" is required. Just a
battery capable of cranking the engine over a few times. Recharge it
when you park the plane.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, let's see now. You've still got the battery onboard so that
means a battery box & cables. Then the cables need some kind of
control... even a knife switch will do but you gotta have one...
unless you're planning on just rubbing the cable against the battery
post. From the switch at least one of the cables has to run to the
starter motor which of course has to be held in position so as to mate
with the ring-gear, which you still need too.

So it looks alike you've still got everything in the average
electrical 'system' except the dynamo & regulator/rectifier. And if
you're using the coaxially installed jobbie I've described in previous
articles you've just saved yourself the grand sum of 7.36 pounds,
ending up with 90% of an electrical system that can't produce any
electricity.

With logic like that I'd be ashamed to sign my posts too :-)

-R.S.Hoover


  #7  
Old July 21st 08, 07:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
erik
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default Orphaned Engine

On Jul 20, 5:05*am, " wrote:
Most Experts Aren’t. *That's something the late Smokey Yunick said
back when I was a seaman deuce. Every month my mail delivers one or
two messages saying it's still true. The messages usually come from
some superbly experienced fellow who has literally spent his life
working on cars or trucks. He is the Local Guru when it comes to
engines for homebuilts and he's taking the time to let me know that
the automotive engineers I like to cite in my articles aren't quite as
bright as I seem to think they are, offering an experience-based
example to prove his point.

Unfortunately, the offered example invariably deals with cars or
trucks, things in which the fellow has a life-time of experience,
whereas automotive in the sense used here, does not, although it could
include them. To an engineer, automotive means something that can move
under its own power. Like an oil tanker, the Space Shuttle, or a gold
dredger.

My usual reaction is to hit the delete key. I get more mail than I
want, most from people with real problem, some of whom I can help. But
it's always sad to hear smart people say dumb things. And on the
whole, these are smart people, even though a life-time of experience
hasn't tipped him off that we're taking about two different meanings
for automotive.

We all start out pretty dumb. As we age we gather information and gain
experience and, assuming a fair share of native wit, we end up a bit
smarter than when we began. Mebbe all this guy needs is a nudge in the
right direction. So you say hello and the odds are the fellow is
having the same problems as everyone else except he was a bit too
proud to say so.

With this type of Expert you'll often discover his life-time of
experience has been with just one type of engine or perhaps one type
of car and he has been trying to transfer that experience to a Corvair
or a Volkswagen and isn't having much luck. I mean, who ever heard of
a head torqued to only eighteen foot-pounds! That has to be wrong...
right?

If the fellow hasn't figured out the meaning of automotive there's a
good chance he won't have any idea in the blue-eyed world about Class
of Service but a good understanding here is the real key to a
successful conversion so you give it a shot.

A car or light truck uses a variable speed, high-rpm, low-torque
engine whose nominal output approximates 25% of its peak output.
Nominal output is defined as the amount of power the engine was
designed to deliver for approximately 98% of its service life. The
only time it’s expected to produce more… that wayward 2%… is when
accelerating or climbing a hill. *Once on the flats -- once you've
reached a Stable State of cruise -- the figures are a good match. *For
hilly regions vehicle manufacturers offer different ratios for the
rear-ends. *Economy takes a hit but over-all, the figures match up.
Respect an engine's Class of Service and you'll be rewarded with 2,000
to 5,000 hours between overhauls.

You can always demand more output from either *type of engine but
doing so will reduce it's service life. With a converted VW, for
example, your Mean Time Before Failure will typically fall from about
2,000 hours in vehicular service to about 200 hours when powering a
plane.

By comparison, an aircraft engine is a single-speed, low-rpm, high-
torque engine whose nominal output approximates 75% of its peak
output. Peak output may be defined further as maximum sustainable
output, and as Peak-sub I, meaning an instantaneous value or dyno
blip, something you might use to impress the newbies.

Since our goal is to produce thrust throuigh the rotation of a
propeller, our primary interest is in the amount of torque that
appears in the crank, and in the propeller's efficiency at a given
rpm. The measurement of thrust is quite simple and articles describing
different types of homebuilt thrust stands have appeared in the
literature and on the internet. You will note that horsepower, which
serves no useful function at this stage, has not been mentioned.

It usually takes an exchange of half a dozen messages or thereabouts
to arrive at this point, if in fact we arrive at all. In the
overwhelming majority of cases the Local Expert simply vanishes. Which
is doubly unfortunate because the best is yet to come.

When we convert an auto engine for use in an airplane we are trying to
convert it from one Class of Operation to another to make it more
suitable, usually in the area of mechanical reliability. By
comparison, the typical flying Volkswagen starts out as a marginally
suitable auto engine that is then made even less suitable for aircraft
use by turning it into a hot-rod enigine. Why? Usually because the
person doing the conversion has little understanding of an aircraft
powerplant. *Indeed, most such experts are merely the local Guru grown
old, selling dune buggy engines to the kiddies. *And after all, it
does fly the plane, right?

So why even bother.

Well.... because we should. *A properly built engine is more
efficient. *It produces the required torque at a lower rpm and wear
increases exponentially with rpm. *That means a properly built engine
uses less fuel to deliver the same thrust and last longer, too.

But a properly built engine is also a lot less expensive to build and
nowdays that's becoming a critical factor.

See that chart down there? *The one title BORE VS STROKE? *(It's
embedded in the article in the blog; you guys on r.a.h. will have to
go dig it out and print yourself a copy.) *The chart shows the bore &
stroke combinations for most common conversions and for everything
using 88mm jugs or larger, or a 78 mm or longer crank, is going to
have to machine the crankcase & heads to match. *What they'll end up
with is a dune-buggy combination -- a high-rpm engine that produces
most of its torque up high. *Itty-bitty toothpick of a prop. *Not very
efficient at all. *Lots of machining to do. *Lots of tricky bits to go
wrong during assembly... which is why some folks don't even offer the
thing assembled.

But it's all a bit of a joke because no matter HOW BIG the engine,
it's MAXIMUM SUSTAINABLE OUTPUT is going to be between 35hp and 45hp.

Yeah, I know -- everybody is selling 80hp and up. *Which is a dyno
blip, not a steady output. *Lotsa cubes is going to get you out of the
weeds quicker but once you get the puppy cleaned up you're flying
behind your basic 40hp engine, depending on the local atmosphere.

The limitation has to do with the heads, not the displacement. *The
cylinder heads only provide enough fin-area to manage the waste-heat
from about 40hp. *Unless its nice and cold or you are nice & high.
But the dune crowd only knows how to build big-bore strokers.

Now go take anohter look at that chart. *Limit your jugs to the stock
85.5mm.s and your cranshaft to a 78mm. *At those sizes there's NO
MACHINING REQUIRED. *Your displacement is 1791cc, your maximum
SUSTAINABLE output is about 45hp and your peak torque is going to come
in at about 2800rpm.

Did I mention that no machining is required?

You've altered your cam timing but you're running a stock cam or a
Schneider 'chugger,' the one used in the orchard-blower engine.
You're running SINGLE PORT HEADS... because you're now an airplane
engine, not a hot-rod. *Your Volumetric Efficiency is pushing 70% and
you're about a $1000 dollars ahead of the game because you haven't had
to buy all that machining and you're using a higher percentage of
stock, off the shelf parts. *You're also running a longer, more
efficient prop -- hopefully one you've carved yourself.

The thing starts on the first flip because it has an efficient
ignition system, one that automatically adjusts itself to the load and
a 20A. electrical system. *But no starter, please. *As it is, it
weighs about twenty pounds less than any engine offered by anyone
else.

But of course, it's not a dune-buggy engine. *And the Instant Experts
will stand in line to damn it with faint praise for that fact alone
even while it flys circles around them and is still going strong when
they're doing their second valve job of the year.

In my opinion, this is the perfect engine for an aerodynamically clean
single-seater, like Bruce Kings little beauty. *Had fate dealt me a
different hand, that's what it would be going into. *It would also be
a good match for a KR-1, the early Jodel, Druine, the Teenie Two and
similar designs.

Kill the parent, you got orphans. *And that applies to engines, too.

-R.S.Hoover


Hello Bob

Nice article as per usual.

How about something more on the Type 4? Most info on this engine seems
to be " That is what the VW engine should have been" or " yeah, the
type 4, now that`s a different story" etc. I am sure I am not the only
one with an interest in the "bigger" veedub, and an in-depth
discussion on what can be done with it and to it, written by an
expert like yourself, would be hugely appreciated. It is heavier than
the T1, less available, and parts are more expensive, but it is still
a flat-4 aircooled VW, ain`t it?

Thank you and regards,

Erik Snyman.

PS. Have you perhaps got something written on the T4 on your blog? If
so, a link, please.
  #8  
Old July 21st 08, 08:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
Morgans[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,924
Default Orphaned Engine


"erik" wrote

Nice article as per usual.

How about something more on the Type 4? Most info on this engine seems
to be " That is what the VW engine should have been" or " yeah, the
type 4, now that`s a different story" etc. I am sure I am not the only
one with an interest in the "bigger" veedub, and an in-depth
discussion on what can be done with it and to it, written by an
expert like yourself, would be hugely appreciated. It is heavier than
the T1, less available, and parts are more expensive, but it is still
a flat-4 aircooled VW, ain`t it?

--- new post starts he ----

As far as that goes, how about a small blurb on the type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and
how many other types there are? g

About the time I think I am understanding VW's, someone brings up "type 1,
only," and my eyes start to glaze over. ;-) Like just basic, like what
years, cars they were used in, and the main differences between them.

I had a 72 convertible bug for a while, and don't even know what type it
had!

I wish they had made a 6 cylinder bug engine, with decent heads. That would
be a much better aero engine, me thinks. I'm afraid that 40 HP is not going
to ever be enough for what I want to build.
--
Jim in NC


  #9  
Old July 22nd 08, 02:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 472
Default Orphaned Engine

On Jul 21, 12:58*pm, "Morgans" wrote:

As far as that goes, how about a small blurb on the type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and
how many other types there are? g
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Types? They number in the low HUNDREDS, from the basic beetle or Type
I to some NATO aviation support vehicles, Type 338 and higher.

Volkswagen has ALWAYS reserved 'Type' to define the CHASSIS.

Volkswagen engines have ALWAYS been defined by a number approximating
their displacement: 1100, 1500, etc. What Ami-Ricans refer to as the
'Type 4 engine' is actually three engines, the 1700, 1800 and 2000,
which was installed in about a dozen different vehicles, not counting
the applications from the Industrial Engine Divsion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About the time I think I am understanding VW's, someone brings up "type 1,
only," and my eyes start to glaze over. *;-) *Like just basic, like what
years, cars they were used in, and the main differences between them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Variations to the basic VW engines probably number in the thousands;
you can line up at least a hundred variations in the heads alone.
Since the changes were incorporated within production runs you will
need a full set of Factory Service Manuals to learn the serial numbers
of when such changes started and stopped.

Since the Type 1 used SIX different engines over the years, and ALL of
those included variations, the type vs displacement thingy is a handy
way to determine if a person is just running their mouth or if they
actually know something about VW engines.

But that has little to do with converting a VW engine for flight since
you should base your build on all new, universal replacement parts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wish they had made a 6 cylinder bug engine, with decent heads. *That would
be a much better aero engine, me thinks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They did. It's called the Corvair :-)

-R.S.Hoover
  #10  
Old July 22nd 08, 02:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 472
Default Orphaned Engine

On Jul 21, 11:47*am, erik wrote:

How about something more on the Type 4?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mostly because I don't consider myself qualified on them.

I've converted a couple for flight and done my share of repairs on
411's and the like, but I've never had access to enough cores to do
much in the way of experimentation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most info on this engine seems
to be " That is what the VW engine should have been"


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

True enough. It incorporates all of the HVX mods, for example. Plus
hydraulic cam-follwers. And it has already been converted & certified
as an aircraft engine by Porsche. But it fails the test of Critical
Mass: There aren't enough of them to trigger the investment &
experimentation that leads to a race-winning combo. Mark Stephens
devoted a lot of time to the engine's initial short-comings (bad valve
seats, head seals, sodium-filled valves, etc) and fielded a number of
race-winning cars with this engine. But having tooled-up to produce
reliable heads and so forth, found the market simply wasn't there. My
conversions of this engine were limited to the aviation-specific
items: The engine mount, prop-hub, cooling system and so forth. For
the mechanical components, I simply bought the parts from Stephen.
The be fully qualified on the engine I would have tooled-up to do ALL
of the engine-work in-house. That's the only way you can certain of
the quality of the work.

-R.S.Hoover
 




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