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We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000



 
 
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  #91  
Old March 21st 17, 05:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 7:36:58 PM UTC+3, chipsoars wrote:
anyone remember Lennie the Lurker?

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 11:34:24 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Here's your chance, Wilbur/Sean. Sell your ASG-29 and buy 10 used PW-5s
and hand them out to deserving individuals and/or clubs. You can ensure
your place in history with that one selfless act!

But, as was said earlier, you can build something ugly or something
pretty (performance, looks, whatever) for the same price, but you won't
build thinner airfoils for the same price. If you could, why weren't
then done in the past? Hint: it wasn't science, it was technology
(theory vs engineering/materials) and the materials to produce the
theory cost more, not to mention the labor.

Is this thing repeating? To paraphrase Einstein: Saying the same thing
over and over again is the definition of insanity. Maybe Sean/Wilbur is
simply trying to drive us all mad and we're taking the bait.

I'm out (I hope).

On 3/21/2017 3:05 AM, wrote:
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

Thank you Bruce, thank you.

Yes that's right. According to
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com a PW-5 in today's money would be $23,976.

I'll repeat that a second time for clarification $23,976.

And a third time for impact $23,976


I rest my case to all you naysayers who say a glider can't be produced at a reasonable cost!



There it is. An ASW-19 WAS cutting edge on the production line, a PW-5 was NOT! "If" the PW-5 didn't look like a Volkswagen clown car, it would have revolutionized the sport. Perhaps someone should take a aesthetically pleasing 15 meter popular club class glider and replicate it using the same production quality of the PW-5 and sell them.

Here's to hoping a second chance at the great intentions of the PW-5 to someone out there. If we had that, the hopes and dreams of a world class would be a reality, and soaring would be made great again.


Sure. Active about 15 years go. Hated progress of any kind.

Someone claiming to be him posted this in '14:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec....M/5wH9FeoVwfkJ
Ads
  #92  
Old March 21st 17, 05:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 9:36:58 AM UTC-7, chipsoars wrote:
anyone remember Lennie the Lurker?


Nice one, Chip.
A possible way for "Wilbur" or "Lennie" to produce his/her/their cheap gliders...

Use prison labor.
Wages are about ten cents an hour plus the fees paid to the company running the prison. There is no need to provide employee benefits. Wonder if anyone checks that the factory is a safe and healthy place to work? Overrated.
Employees are conveniently housed on site, like Dubai construction workers. Additional fees paid to the prison management might give your best employees incentive to remain with you beyond their original contract period.
With the factories located in the USA you can even use slogans (apparently people fall for them) like: "25% more than a PW5, same low price" "make America great again" "new improved formula", or the one Wal-Mart got busted for using: "made in the USA".
Wilbur/Lennie can be leaders in the new American way!

Diabolical laughter, with lots of reverb...
Jim
  #93  
Old March 21st 17, 06:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Yes, that was him. The parts he made for the HP-24 project are still working great.
  #94  
Old March 21st 17, 07:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 2:34:09 AM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 3:50:01 AM UTC+3, wrote:
Again, no one on here will discuss these questions:

How much was a PW-5 brand new?


Is it not a rhetorical question? I believe my club's two PW5s in 1994 or 1995 (which were somewhere in the first five or six serial numbers) cost NZ$25000, or about US$15000.

What would that be worth in today's dollars with inflation?


That's US$24000 now, based on US inflation.

I suspect other factors such as the cost of living in Poland might be more relevant -- that looks to me more like a factor of 3.5 since the mid 90s, which would make a PW5 cost $52500 now.


IIRC when the PW-6 was early in production, if you bought one, they would give you a PW-5 to go with it. Not sure how many took advantage of that, however, the late Dick Johnson donated a PW-6 and PW-5 to the Mississippi State University Gliding Club, so perhaps he did.
  #95  
Old March 21st 17, 08:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000


What happened to Soar-point? That scrivener seemed to understand satire.


On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 9:36:58 AM UTC-7, chipsoars wrote:
anyone remember Lennie the Lurker?

  #96  
Old March 22nd 17, 12:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Alex[_6_]
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Last years WGC club class was won in a glider valued under 15k dollars including all the accessories. It has never been cheaper than today to own a glider to compete with on a world level.

With declining numbers of glider pilots, a strong market for new high-end ships and virtually unlimited lifetime of used gliders, the availability of affordable gliders is really not an issue.
  #97  
Old March 22nd 17, 10:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 2:05:09 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!

Thank you Bruce, thank you.

Yes that's right. According to http://www.usinflationcalculator.com a PW-5 in today's money would be $23,976.

I'll repeat that a second time for clarification $23,976.

And a third time for impact $23,976


I rest my case to all you naysayers who say a glider can't be produced at a reasonable cost!



I hate to be the math and economics guy all the time, but I think you rested your case on the wrong analysis.

The PW-5 was made in Poland. You applied the US CPI. Turns out US and Polish inflation rates are different because (drum roll) they are different countries. Poland went through hyperinflation after the end of the Cold War and did a 10,000:1 redenomination of their currency in 1995.

If you compound Polish CPI from 1994 to today you get higher prices by a factor of 5.9. That would make a $15,000 PW-5 in 1994 cost about $88,000 today.

But don't despair. Big differentials in inflation can be accompanied by offsetting currency exchange rates. The Polish Zloty has devalued a bit versus the dollar so, adjusting for inflation AND exchange rates (adjusting for the redenomination), a 1994 PW-5 would cost around $55,000 today.

I bet that's not too far off from what you'd pay for a GP 11, and the GP 11 performs a lot better than a PW-5.

This is a simplified analysis as inflation for skilled technical jobs (like making gliders) can rise at a somewhat different rate than overall prices. Nevertheless, engineering and economics are kind of like gravity, you ignore them at your peril.

Do I get a chicken dinner?

Andy Blackburn
9B
  #98  
Old March 23rd 17, 12:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 10:36:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
How and why, was the PW-5 made for so cheap?


Because it had a tube tailboom and did not have a T-tail.


Nobody can answer this because it proves you are wrong!

Basic sailplanes do not cost a fortune to build. There is a market for entry level gliders with a handicap of 1.00 for a reasonable price. Few pilots want to own a 40-50 year old fiberglass sailplane.

How much did an ASW-19 cost brand new in 1975?


Bob K and I have discussed the possibility of getting a S-LSA certification for the HP-24. It would cost about $500,000. If that were underwritten by investors, then the HP-24 could be sold as a completed and ready-to-fly glider. There is no other mechanism that would allow for selling a glider built new in the USA. You can not certificate a new, built in the USA aircraft as Experimental-air race and demonstration.
  #99  
Old March 23rd 17, 01:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

Sorry, no chicken dinner.

You are comparing apples to oranges from 2 decades ago where political environments have changed, in an attempt to prove that gliders MUST cost a fortune. It's just as silly as the prison example above, or the production plant in Mexico. One of the big reasons this sport has gone dow hill has been from the cult mantra that NOTHING can be changed (period), which is just ridiculous! Thus no structured group effort is made to change.

My point is this, you all say it can't be done, I say it already has been done. The PW-5 was created at an affordable price. And it absolutely could be created again, perhaps not in the same country, or by the same manufacture, and hopefully not the same design! But it has been done before and therefor can be done again.

After this in depth discussion I sincerely believe that the reason gliders cost so much is because there just isn't anyone capable of manufacturing a sailplane that actually wants to produce an affordable glider. The desire seems to be in only the extreme cutting edge technology. Sailboat, airplane, automobile and other transportation designs all have varieties available ranging from basic to advanced, except soaring.

Therefor, pilots are forced to choose between a sailplane that is the price of a Ferrari or Maserati, or an antique worn out old fiberglass ship that is crazed over and who knows just how safe it really is since there's no data on the structural integrity of 50 year old fiberglass.

Rant over, go ahead, flame away.
  #100  
Old March 23rd 17, 05:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

You can not certificate a new, built in the USA aircraft as Experimental-air race and demonstration.

Wasn't this done with the few Duckhawk's that were built?

 




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