"Movement Area" (airplanes and trucks)

Landing on 22 at KCDW today (after a fantastic little trip with my wife
shooting photos of the fall colors around our town), I was instructed to
taxi via H to N to RN tie-down. P, the taxiway normally used to reach N
from that point, was closed for construction.

That taxi clearance put me in conflict with a truck. I asked ground for the
trucks intentions, and was told "I don't know; it's not a movement
area" (he may have said "controlled"; I don't recall the specific
verbiage). I had to move very close to parked aircraft to avoid this
truck, who had the grace to slow down. Somewhat.

Airport operations came on the frequency and told the tower to instruct the
trucks to stay somewhere (again, I don't recall the specifics). The tower
acknowledged. I added "thanks". The tower then asked if I understood that
H wasn't a movement area (or some such).

This situation irks me. Can ground control clear me through an area over
which they've no control? I've been cleared *to* uncontrolled areas; not
*through*. Does it become controlled when the taxiway normally used for
that route is closed? Should it?

- Andrew

.. He obviously did clear you into a uncontrolled ramp area... So the
answer is yes he can...

denny

Denny wrote:

. He obviously did clear you into a uncontrolled ramp area... So the
answer is yes he can...

Your conclusion may be correct, but your reasoning isn't quite. Rather, one
cannot conclude by what was done that it is permitted to be done.

[Although if you mean "can" literally, as opposed to "may", then you'd be
correct grin.]

There've been incidents there before regarding trucks and aircraft, at least
one of which involved an aircraft being cleared onto a taxiway inhabited by
a truck.

- Andrew

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
[...]
This situation irks me. Can ground control clear me through an area over
which they've no control?

Yes, they may. Depending on the airport, it may or may not be common. In
some cases, the only reason for an area being a "non-movement area" is that
it's not in view of the control tower. A taxiing airplane might have to or
want to move through such an "out of view" area on their way from Point A to
Point B.

Anyone can move about freely within a non-movement area; it's just as if
you're at an uncontrolled airport. You should handle it the same way.

I've been cleared *to* uncontrolled areas; not
*through*. Does it become controlled when the taxiway normally used for
that route is closed? Should it?

I don't see why it should. You can imagine the confusion that would reign
if a particular area of the airport went back and forth between being
controlled and uncontrolled.

Pete

"Movement area" is defined in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. At Renton,
Washington, the whole airport is non-movement except for the runway and the
runup areas. Ground Control will answer if you call, but no calls are
expected. Conflicts between airplanes and vehicles are worked out between
the participants with no input from the tower cab.

Bob Gardner
"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...

Landing on 22 at KCDW today (after a fantastic little trip with my wife
shooting photos of the fall colors around our town), I was instructed to
taxi via H to N to RN tie-down. P, the taxiway normally used to reach N
from that point, was closed for construction.

That taxi clearance put me in conflict with a truck. I asked ground for
the
trucks intentions, and was told "I don't know; it's not a movement
area" (he may have said "controlled"; I don't recall the specific
verbiage). I had to move very close to parked aircraft to avoid this
truck, who had the grace to slow down. Somewhat.

Airport operations came on the frequency and told the tower to instruct
the
trucks to stay somewhere (again, I don't recall the specifics). The tower
acknowledged. I added "thanks". The tower then asked if I understood
that
H wasn't a movement area (or some such).

This situation irks me. Can ground control clear me through an area over
which they've no control? I've been cleared *to* uncontrolled areas; not
*through*. Does it become controlled when the taxiway normally used for
that route is closed? Should it?

- Andrew

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...

Landing on 22 at KCDW today (after a fantastic little trip with my wife
shooting photos of the fall colors around our town), I was instructed to
taxi via H to N to RN tie-down. P, the taxiway normally used to reach N
from that point, was closed for construction.


Where's H? I'm looking at the NACO airport diagram, I see no H. Where's RN
tiedown?



That taxi clearance put me in conflict with a truck. I asked ground for
the trucks intentions, and was told "I don't know; it's not a movement
area" (he may have said "controlled"; I don't recall the specific
verbiage). I had to move very close to parked aircraft to avoid this
truck, who had the grace to slow down. Somewhat.

Airport operations came on the frequency and told the tower to instruct
the trucks to stay somewhere (again, I don't recall the specifics). The
tower
acknowledged. I added "thanks". The tower then asked if I understood
that H wasn't a movement area (or some such).

This situation irks me. Can ground control clear me through an area over
which they've no control?


What's the alternative if the only other route is via a closed taxiway?



I've been cleared *to* uncontrolled areas; not
*through*. Does it become controlled when the taxiway normally used for
that route is closed?


No.



Should it?


No taxiway should be nonmovement area.

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Movement area" is defined in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. At Renton,
Washington, the whole airport is non-movement except for the runway and
the runup areas. Ground Control will answer if you call, but no calls are
expected. Conflicts between airplanes and vehicles are worked out between
the participants with no input from the tower cab.


FAR 91.129 states "No person may, at any airport with an operating control
tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an
aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC." There is
no exception for taxiways designated as nonmovement area.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
FAR 91.129 states "No person may, at any airport with an operating control
tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an
aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC." There is
no exception for taxiways designated as nonmovement area.

You're pretty funny (read, "idiotic").

The areas within the non-movement area are not defined as "runway" or
"taxiway", with respect to that regulation.

Movement (including operation of an aircraft) without a clearance from ATC
happens all the time in non-movement areas at airports all over the country.
It happens that at Renton, they have defined the non-movement area to
include all of the airport except the runway. Technically, that means that
the pavement one taxis on is not a "taxiway".

You wishing it to be otherwise doesn't make it so.

Pete

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:


Where's H?

Parallel to and east of P. It extends between N and D.

I'm looking at the NACO airport diagram, I see no H. Where's
RN tiedown?

It's the parking area near the east side of 9-27.

[...]


What's the alternative if the only other route is via a closed taxiway?

Either H or 4-22, if P is closed anywhere between D and N. One could taxi
north on 4-22, left on B to N, thus keeping use of 4-22 to a minimum.

[It occurs to me that I could have made the right turn onto B. I was slow
enough. But that's "the wrong way", so it never occurred to me and nobody
else suggested it.]

- Andrew

I have seen cases where airports have expanded, and access to some hangars
is provided via "taxiways" through non-mouvment areas, across local roads.
In the cases I recall, the local roads are always clearly marked with STOP
signs, and drivers are informed they must yield to aircraft on the ground.
Is it not a general rule, even in non-mouvment areas, that aircraft have
right of way over land vehicles?

G Faris