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JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 21st 10, 02:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Jim Wilkins
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Posts: 57
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

On Mar 21, 9:07*am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:02*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Mar 21, 8:00*am, Arved Sandstrom wrote:


*...


How do you tell the artillery to hit 150 meters NNW of the purple
smoke, or is that still relevant?


jsw


GPS and lasers


I helped develop some of that stuff and would be cautious about
relying on it against a technically sophisticated enemy who could
localize the emissions or spoof GPS with pseudolites.

Enough said, no examples this time.

jsw
  #12  
Old March 21st 10, 03:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
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Posts: 301
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

On Mar 21, 9:50*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Mar 21, 9:07*am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:

On Mar 21, 9:02*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:


On Mar 21, 8:00*am, Arved Sandstrom wrote:


*...


How do you tell the artillery to hit 150 meters NNW of the purple
smoke, or is that still relevant?


jsw


GPS and lasers


I helped develop some of that stuff and would be cautious about
relying on it against a technically sophisticated enemy who could
localize the emissions or spoof GPS with pseudolites.

Enough said, no examples this time.

jsw


When was the last time the U.S. military faced a "technically
sophisticated enemy"? How do you spoof military GPS?
  #13  
Old March 21st 10, 03:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Jim Wilkins
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Posts: 57
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

On Mar 21, 9:35*am, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote in news:403ede79-f9c2-4ed1-9568-
...

[Generally, however, if you're firing smoke to mark a target, you're
dealing with a target that doesn't require smart ammo.]
--
Andrew Chaplin


Good point. I was thinking of gun positions concealed on a rocky
hillside, able to target laser flashes and kill the designator.

jsw
  #14  
Old March 21st 10, 03:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Andrew Chaplin
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Posts: 728
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

Jim Wilkins wrote in news:06e4c642-660b-43ad-ab48-
:

On Mar 21, 9:35*am, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote in news:403ede79-f9c2-4ed1-9568-
...

[Generally, however, if you're firing smoke to mark a target, you're
dealing with a target that doesn't require smart ammo.]


Good point. I was thinking of gun positions concealed on a rocky
hillside, able to target laser flashes and kill the designator.


Few if any service lasers "flash," at least not in the visible light
spectrum. Laser designators are usually on only from the report of
"Splash" -- about five seconds. It is a challenge to bring fire to bear
before the guys with the laser f*** off.

If you're talking indirect fire artillery, gun positions are never to be
dealt with lightly; you need a counter-battery policy, the basis of which
should usually be "go big or stay quiet" lest you attract unwelcome
attentions. If you're dealing with DF arty, talk to your nearest tankie.

I'm old school, so if I were bringing in air on guns as you describe, I
would use some sort of load with DPICM submunitions. Those are not
precision weapons and fitting GPS or other targeting aids to them when
you can observe the target is, well, a waste of time and money.

(My own government has sworn off DPICM because of its tendency to leave
UXO all over the show, a policy I think ill-advised. A better idea would
be to go with a bomblet with an extremely low probability of landing
blind.)
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
  #15  
Old March 21st 10, 03:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 301
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

On Mar 21, 10:41*am, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote in news:06e4c642-660b-43ad-ab48-
:

On Mar 21, 9:35*am, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote in news:403ede79-f9c2-4ed1-9568-
...


[Generally, however, if you're firing smoke to mark a target, you're
dealing with a target that doesn't require smart ammo.]


Good point. I was thinking of gun positions concealed on a rocky
hillside, able to target laser flashes and kill the designator.


Few if any service lasers "flash," at least not in the visible light
spectrum. Laser designators are usually on only from the report of
"Splash" -- about five seconds. It is a challenge to bring fire to bear
before the guys with the laser f*** off.

If you're talking indirect fire artillery, gun positions are never to be
dealt with lightly; you need a counter-battery policy, the basis of which
should usually be "go big or stay quiet" lest you attract unwelcome
attentions. If you're dealing with DF arty, talk to your nearest tankie.

I'm old school, so if I were bringing in air on guns as you describe, I
would use some sort of load with DPICM submunitions. Those are not
precision weapons and fitting GPS or other targeting aids to them when
you can observe the target is, well, a waste of time and money.

(My own government has sworn off DPICM because of its tendency to leave
UXO all over the show, a policy I think ill-advised. A better idea would
be to go with a bomblet with an extremely low probability of landing
blind.)
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)


Or timed self-dee
  #16  
Old March 21st 10, 04:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Andrew Chaplin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 728
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

Jack Linthicum wrote in
:

On Mar 21, 10:41*am, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote in news:06e4c642-660b-43ad-ab48-
:

On Mar 21, 9:35*am, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote in
news:403ede79-f9c2-4ed1-9568- ...


[Generally, however, if you're firing smoke to mark a target,
you're dealing with a target that doesn't require smart ammo.]


Good point. I was thinking of gun positions concealed on a rocky
hillside, able to target laser flashes and kill the designator.


Few if any service lasers "flash," at least not in the visible light
spectrum. Laser designators are usually on only from the report of
"Splash" -- about five seconds. It is a challenge to bring fire to
bear before the guys with the laser f*** off.

If you're talking indirect fire artillery, gun positions are never to
be dealt with lightly; you need a counter-battery policy, the basis
of which should usually be "go big or stay quiet" lest you attract
unwelcome attentions. If you're dealing with DF arty, talk to your
nearest tankie.

I'm old school, so if I were bringing in air on guns as you describe,
I would use some sort of load with DPICM submunitions. Those are not
precision weapons and fitting GPS or other targeting aids to them
when you can observe the target is, well, a waste of time and money.

(My own government has sworn off DPICM because of its tendency to
leave UXO all over the show, a policy I think ill-advised. A better
idea would be to go with a bomblet with an extremely low probability
of landing blind.)


Or timed self-dee


They had already tried that and it didn't work reliably. The DPICM
bomblets were, I think, too small for a mechanism that would have done
the trick, having a volume of only about 0.1 litres. Artillery-delivered
minelets are large enough for such mechanism, but they are not (properly)
used to suppress.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
  #17  
Old March 21st 10, 05:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Jim Wilkins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

On Mar 21, 10:41*am, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
...
Few if any service lasers "flash," at least not in the visible light
spectrum. Laser designators are usually on only from the report of
"Splash" -- about five seconds. It is a challenge to bring fire to bear
before the guys with the laser f*** off.


Infrared detection is now cheap and easy, to ~1 micron if you want a
sharp image and out to 10 microns if you don't.

jsw
  #18  
Old March 21st 10, 11:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
[email protected]
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Posts: 121
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

It used to be that stealth aircraft were supposed to be the "silver
bullet"
force that knocked down the enemy air defenses in the opening days of
a conflict, so that the cheaper, less-stealthy platforms could follow
up
and do their thing.

Now it looks like the USAF wants an all-silver-bullet force, which is
going
to cause the USAF to shrivel up into a purely air combat and
interdiction
force, while Army UCAV's and attack helos take over the CAS role.

This is a bad idea. There are many missions, such as air-sovereignty
and
air strikes against insurgents, that don't require stealth, and will
only
pile up wear and tear on those expensive stealthy airframes.

The USAF should consider buying more F-16's to fulfill these roles at
a
lower cost than the F-35. I doubt they will though.

Agree/Disagree?
  #19  
Old March 21st 10, 11:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Sunny
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Posts: 20
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million


"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Mar 21, 8:00 am, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
...


How do you tell the artillery to hit 150 meters NNW of the purple
smoke, or is that still relevant?
jsw

** By radio, only if the arty has direct line of sight to the target.
For indirect fire, why throw smoke? (Unless you are relying on airborne
spotter to relay radio fire missions.)


  #20  
Old March 22nd 10, 12:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
hcobb
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Posts: 64
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

On Mar 21, 7:18*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
Good point. I was thinking of gun positions concealed on a rocky
hillside, able to target laser flashes and kill the designator.

jsw


For that kind of target you go PAM! PAM! PAM!

-HJC
 




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