How safe is a new teenaged pilot?

"Jay Honeck" writes:

That report includes the statement that "ASF studies have shown that low
pilot time in type is often a significant contributing factor in
accidents." But I didn't see any specific data there to back it up.

I think if we read "between the lines" we will find that the poster is
really concerned with this pilot's youth -- perhaps more so than with his
low flight time.

A 17 year old boy is basically a fleshy container of hormones, with great
stamina, questionable stability, and loads of bravado. This is NOT
necessarily a great fit with being a new pilot -- especially when you put
two of these guys inside the same vehicle.

There are very good reasons that car insurance for 17 year old boys costs
exponentially more than for adults. They generally have poor judgment, and
are known to end their statements -- and sometimes their lives -- with
"Watch this!"

Personally, I'd be VERY reluctant to allow my son to fly with another 17
year old boy.

People aren't averages, though, either. There are *some* careful and
mature 17-year-olds. Since the parents know the other boy, I'd
suggest *that* is the main area to consider. Does he show signs of
typical adolescent stupid behavior? Does he show definit signs of
*resisting* it? Maybe not so bad a risk.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

"Guy Elden Jr" writes:

I'm hoping that this says that teenage pilots are better than teenage
drivers.

I think with the amount of time, effort, and money put toward earning a
private pilot certificate that one gains more of a sense of ownership
of that privelege than one does when "earning" a driver's license. Most
kids think of a dl as an entitlement, a rite of passage. Doubtful they
look upon flying with the same carefree attitude.

Still, you're right about the youthful indiscretions, but I wouldn't be
too quick to judge _all_ 17 year boys by that standard. I certainly
never took risks when driving at that age, but I consider myself more
the boring exception to the rule.

True, I didn't either. Of course, I didn't get my driver's license
until I was 22, so that might have something to do with it too. :-)
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

"Tom Fleischman" k wrote in
message
news:2005051314153543658%bodhijunkoneeightyeightju nkatmacdotcom@junkjunk...
On 2005-05-13 04:27:59 -0400, "EastWing" said:


"Happy Dog" wrote in message
news
wrote in

Just make sure that they don't try flying across one of the
great lakes, especially at night.

Is that your best cautionary suggestion? Your recommendation is
hysterical in nature and of almost no relevant preventative value.
Think or shut up.


Actually, his advice is both relevant and subtle. The issue under
discussion is teen-age judgement and the above advice relates to
judgement, although whether the accident was due to age, judgement,
a combination, or a fuel leak of some nature is still undecided.

What accident are you talking about?


The accident was discussed in the thread "Out of fuel, out of hope: 'Help,
I'm in the water'". A news paper account is at
http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20050...5912-7691r.htm

However, I was wrong in regard to this discussion. I thought the pilot was
18 but he was 20.

"anon" wrote in message These credentials not withstanding, I'm guessing
that there is increased risk
of accidents with new pilots. We are uncomfortable about letting him fly
with
his friend, but we want to be reasonable.
I would appreciate any data or guidance this group could provide.

Every person is different. I soloed at 16 along with a couple of high school
buddies of mine. We destroyed numerous cars and motorcycles, and maybe a
boat or two, but we never so much as scratched an airplane. The culture
ingrained into us by the older fellows at the airport instilled a sense of
pride in flying.

D.

OtisWinslow wrote:
I'd be more worried about one with 200 to 300 hours who's starting
to get over confident and push the envelope.


I spent a lot of time studying statistics in college and very few of
the more provocative analyses out there really leave much of an
impression. The data is simply not rich enough (that I've seen) to
support high confidence assertions that there is a "killing zone" at
this point. So we're stuck using common sense: inexperience kills
novice pilots, overconfidence and sloppiness kills experienced ones. On
the highway you are at the mercy of every dingbat around; in the air
it's all you. Statistics say that flying is more dangerous as a general
rule but I can understand why many pilots say they feel safer in the
air: depending on their habits they very likely are much of the time.

-cwk.

Our 17 year old son want to fly as a passenger with his 17 year old friend
who
is a brand new pilot. We think the boy is level-headed and mature. He
grew up
flying with his dad who is a retired test pilot for an aircraft
manufacturer.

These credentials not withstanding, I'm guessing that there is increased
risk
of accidents with new pilots. We are uncomfortable about letting him fly
with
his friend, but we want to be reasonable.

I would appreciate any data or guidance this group could provide.

Thanks

Peter

I would approach it like I would other activities when teenagers want to go
out and do stuff. Set some conditions to reduce the risk, then expand the
boundaries as your trust and their maturity increasese. Let your son when
his friend has 100 hours in his logbook, conditions are 5,000 and 5 or
better, daytime, and they stay within 25 miles for example.

("Happy Dog" wrote)
Just make sure that they don't try flying across one of the great
lakes, especially at night.

Is that your best cautionary suggestion? Your recommendation is
hysterical in nature and of almost no relevant preventative value. Think
or shut up.


It was an ok "cautionary" suggestion.

Recommendation was not hysterical in nature - especially if measured against
your terse response. A young man recently slipped under the waves (while
talking to 911) on a cold, dark and windy night, after ditching in Lake
Michigan -
don't fly over the lakes at night 17 year olds.

There, one 'what if' addressed - relevant preventative value in that.


"Think or shut up."

Wow. This is just precious.


Montblack

"Montblack"
Just make sure that they don't try flying across one of the great
lakes, especially at night.

Is that your best cautionary suggestion? Your recommendation is
hysterical in nature and of almost no relevant preventative value. Think
or shut up.

It was an ok "cautionary" suggestion.

I said "is that your best".

Recommendation was not hysterical in nature - especially if measured
against
your terse response. A young man recently slipped under the waves (while
talking to 911) on a cold, dark and windy night, after ditching in Lake
Michigan - don't fly over the lakes at night 17 year olds.

Recommendation was hysterical in nature if measured against reality. Would
he have been OK during the day? Was he 17? Was he a new teenaged pilot?
Do you know what caused that accident? The NTSC needs your number if you
do.

There, one 'what if' addressed - relevant preventative value in that.

You don't know what you're talking about.

"Think or shut up."

Wow. This is just precious.

You have said nothing interesting. Take the hint.

moo

I'm not a pilot, not even a student pilot, and though I've read this
newsgroup for years, I've never before posted.

When I was 16 or so, I had some flight instruction (just 5.5 hours, it
hardly counts!), as did many friends in my age group- in fact, we had
our own club and plane, not bad for a bunch of kids I suppose.

While many teenagers have a tendency to "show off" and do bold (read:
dumb) things occasionally, the mindset we had wasn't like that. If
anything, "showing off" was done not by breaking procedure, but the
opposite. It seemingly showed "gutsiness and bravado" to stick
meticulously to every rule and safe practice no matter what we "wanted"
to do.

I never even solo'd, but the experience still was a huge part of
growing up, and it strongly affected my driving. When I started
driving, I'd already done a bit of flying, and so the "safety first"
thinking was all part of it.

I don't know if I've contributed a thing to the discussion, so while
I'm here, I'd like to shout out a "thanks" to the regulars here; you
all make this a most enjoyable place for reading about the one love I
won't likely ever return to (financial reasons, mainly).

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. Jay Honeck is correct that my
concern was about a YOUNG new pilot, although I now understand that hours in
the air and range of experience are relevant as well. BTIZ's question is a
good one,--would I let them drive in a sports car. The answer is a resounding
yes. In fact I let these two drive across three states at 16 and they did
great, notwithstanding the smuggled fireworks in the trunk on their return. As
to me flying with the friend--not a bad idea. If I wouldn't, I certainly
shouldn't let my son.

We haven't broached this subject with mom yet. We'll see.

Thanks again for your comments and insights.

Peter

"anon" wrote in message
news
Our 17 year old son want to fly as a passenger with his 17 year old friend
who
is a brand new pilot. We think the boy is level-headed and mature. He
grew up
flying with his dad who is a retired test pilot for an aircraft
manufacturer.

These credentials not withstanding, I'm guessing that there is increased
risk
of accidents with new pilots. We are uncomfortable about letting him fly
with
his friend, but we want to be reasonable.

I would appreciate any data or guidance this group could provide.

Thanks

Peter

I came up this route myself, and I have a friend, Corky Fornof, who also
came up this route. Both of us soloed very young. My personal opinion is
that if the boy has had solid training and has passed the flight test with
the powers that be in your location, the odds are very good that he is a
capable and skillful pilot.
Dudley Henriques