My Ground Loop

wrote

If you can find an old ag pilot who is also a CFI, or is willing to fly
with you and try to show you some of the tricks that we learn in
countless landings it would be worthwhile.
You certainly sound like a mature and level headed pilot so I'm sure
you have already given something similar some good thought?
Geeez I haven't flown a Clipper since...hmmm lemme see now.....must be
close to 40 years or so? 1967-68?
Cheers and Happy Holidays

Geez, that is as shameless an attempt to get a ride in someone's airplane as
I have ever heard!

That is what it is, isn't it? g
--
Jim in NC

Deborah McFarland wrote:

In 700 hours of flying my Luscombe, I have never used the brake for landing,
and I've landed in 25 mph direct crosswinds on pavement. We're taught never
to use brake as our airplanes are prone to flipping (and I've seen it
happen).

What's the difference do you think?

Probably two things. My Maule was a 2,200 lb aircraft when fully loaded. The
main gear is also further in front of the center of gravity on the plane.
Basically, that means it takes a lot more braking force to flip that aircraft.

In any case, you can bet that I was riding the brakes as hard as I could once I
got down on that landing. I couldn't put full pressure on them 'cause that made
the plane skid a bit on the grass.

By the way - I didn't have a crosswind to deal with that time. Just trees. I
never used the brakes with strong crosswinds. I would set mine down on the
tailwheel and the upwind main, so braking wouldn't have done me any good.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Don Tuite wrote:

What would the right decision have been?

I was taught that the best choice is to ride it out once the plane has landed.
If you give it full power to try to take off again and don't make it, it's much
more likely to hurt a lot. Of course, if you make it, you just "saved" the plane.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

On 2005-11-29, Deborah McFarland wrote:
In 700 hours of flying my Luscombe, I have never used the brake for landing,
and I've landed in 25 mph direct crosswinds on pavement. We're taught never
to use brake as our airplanes are prone to flipping (and I've seen it
happen).

Some taildraggers are more prone to nosing over than others, depending
on how much of the weight is ahead of the mains on the ground. Our
Cessna 140 was very good - we coudl really use our Cleveland disk brakes
and she never showed any tendency to even lift the tail. But the big
(235hp) Pawnee at the glider club wanted to nose over if you just
breathed on the brakes.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

I agree that a go-around would have been a better outcome if I had
recognized the problem in time. By the time I realized I might not have
enough runway, the go-around option was closed due to the obstructions at
the end of the runway. A few months ago at the same airport, there was an
accident in which a student pilot and flight instructor were practicing
landings in a C152. They made a late decision to go around and ran into a
moving car off the end of the runway. That was one of the very few examples
I am aware of in which a non-participant was seriously injured in an
airplane accident.

I had a mindset that once I was on the runway near the intended point, I
stopped thinking about a go-around. That is overly simplistic when doing
wheel landings, since there may be plenty of speed for flying for awhile
after touchdown. There shouldn't be a lot of extra speed when a wheel
landing is done well, but there may be.

On the topic of wheelies vs three point, I normally practice both. (I had
done little recent practice of either, however.) I feel more comfortable
handling gusty winds from any direction with a wheel landing, so that is
what I chose that time.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
om...
Thanks for the story. I've never flown in a Clipper but I think it has
the nicest lines of all the short wing Pipers. Just real nice.

It occurs to me how forgiving grass is and unforgiving hard surfaces can
be for us butt draggers.

The lesson for me is to learn to go around on occassion if things aren't
lining up right. I just can't the glider thing out of me. I don't think
I've aborted a landing once in 1000+ hrs in the Maule. That's wrong.

Thanks.

Reid & Julie Baldwin wrote:
I have heard it said that there are two types of tailwheel pilots: those
that have ground looped and those that will. A week ago, I graduated from
the latter category into the former category. There was no shirt ripping
ceremony for this milestone. Fortunately, there was also no torn flesh or
bent metal. I post the story here so others can share my lessons learned.

In ag operations we often used strips that were about 1200' grass and
wheel landings were the norm. I still don't understand why so many
pilots are afraid of them or don't do them. Seems a lot have the idea
that it takes extra speed to do them and it just ain't so. Can you slow
fly your airplane? Then you can do a slow wheel landing pure and
simple.
XW landings? Upwind wheel first and hold it there while the a/c slows,
then lower the downwind wheel as the aileron control becomes less
effective, and finally the tailwheel. Done properly, the a/c is already
near a 3 point speed and its a matter of stick and rudder skills.
I can think of a couple times when I had to do an intentional ground
loop to keep from going off the end of a runway with a poorly planned
landing way back in my early days. Lucky though and never damaged
anything but my ego. That, as you can see, is still quite healthy and
robust (Thank you very much)!!
BTW, my earliest days were flying in such animals as the Taylorcraft,
Piper J-3, Aeronca, Stearman. The first trike I flew was a Tri Pacer.
Now I suspect I've got more than 7000 hrs tailwheel and most of it
doing ag ops. Some of it is tailwheel twin engine like Beech 18.
Ol Shy & Bashful

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news49jf.826$s96.482@trndny01...
By the way - I didn't have a crosswind to deal with that time. Just trees.
I never used the brakes with strong crosswinds. I would set mine down on
the tailwheel and the upwind main, so braking wouldn't have done me any
good.


That's how I land in a crosswind in my 8E. My airplane prefers it. On the
other hand, my husband prefers the wheel landing in his 8A. We're an equal
opportunity family.

Deb
--
1946 Luscombe 8A (his)
1948 Luscombe 8E (hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (ours)

wrote in message
ups.com...
In ag operations we often used strips that were about 1200' grass and
wheel landings were the norm. I still don't understand why so many
pilots are afraid of them or don't do them. Seems a lot have the idea
that it takes extra speed to do them and it just ain't so. Can you slow
fly your airplane? Then you can do a slow wheel landing pure and
simple.

My husband won a spot landing contest this past October using a wheel
landing. He can also land in 900 ft of grass with them. He practices flying
down the runway just above a stall all the time. He pulls the power and
gently drops on the mains. It's a joy to watch.

Deb

--
1946 Luscombe 8A (his)
1948 Luscombe 8E (hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (ours)

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wowway d0t com wrote in message

But, if you never use the brakes, how do you do fun things like coming to
a complete stop with the tail still in the air?
(Well, it's fun at first, but then when the tail drops with a bang, you
realize it's not something you want to do a lot...)

--

I don't need brakes to do that in my airplane! With a nice headwind, I can
wheel land and come to a complete stop with the tail up. I land with the
stick at about neutral, and as it slows I gently push it to the stop. I need
a little wind to do it, though.

If I used the brakes, I would flip for sure. I saw a C-120 flip doing that a
few years ago.

My airplane doesn't do great wheel landings. The nose is kind of heavy. My
husband's 8A is much lighter and wheel lands beautifully.

Deb
--
1946 Luscombe 8A (his)
1948 Luscombe 8E (hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (ours)

"Reid & Julie Baldwin" wrote in message
...
1) I should have anticipated the crosswind and not been surprised by it on
final.

Get-there-itis and deteriorating conditions often lead to bad approaches.
Bad approaches are seldom end with a good landing. Also consider that you
had the added distraction of a newly overhauled engine and your nine
year-old son to deal with.

My husband and I belong to a large tailwheel community, including the
Luscombe Association, as well as the tailwheel pilots in our own area. This
topic is discussed often as we travel cross-country often for events and
visiting. Whether it's wind, distractions, or even worse, fatigue, we must
be focused when we reach our destination. Preaching it is one thing; doing
it is another.

2) Obviously, airspeed control was an issue. I wasn't at pattern speed
before entering the pattern and I never quite caught up. After I noticed
the speed was high on final, I got distracted by the crosswind and didn't
get it corrected.
3) Did I pull the power to idle after touchdown? I don't specifically
remember doing that. It is such an automatic thing that I might not
specifically remember it. The fact that the plane did not slow down like
it usually would makes me suspicious that I was still carrying some power.
Since I had to jockey the throttle around to get out of the weeds, I
couldn't look at the tach afterwards to tell.

These two can be connected. Three years ago my C-85-12 was overhauled using
the O-200 insides giving me more horse power. It changed the way my airplane
performed. While you may not have changed your components, your engine is
surely stronger after the overhaul and may give you more momentum on final
than you're used to. In addition, as my engine broke in, my idle rpms
started to creep up. It was something I barely noticed until I started
having trouble slowing down on final. I thought I was losing my touch.
Instead, while I was pulling the throttle back to idle, I was still carrying
too much power for landing. A few extra rpms make a big difference in a
light airplane. My rpms had to be adjusted twice before everything seated
(or whatever it does).

The only thing I have found to pat myself on the back for is the fact that
I never allowed myself to become a passenger. I kept flying the airplane
until I got it stopped on the runway (facing the wrong way and with a load
of weeds, but on the runway).

In the end, that is all you can do. Fly the airplane and hope for the best.
Sounds like you did a good job. You walked away, and a bonus is that the
airplane is still usable!

Deb


--
1946 Luscombe 8A (his)
1948 Luscombe 8E (hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (ours)