How to compare/valuation of features

Hey, Folks:

Grab a beer on me, I'd like to solicit some more opinions. If you've read
the other thread on airplane comparisons, you know I'm shopping for an
airplane.

So, I have another question. This time, not how to compare airplanes, but
how to make an apples-to-apples comparison (money-wise) between different
specimens of the same model for sale. I've used AOPA's Vref, but it's
unsatisfying in this regard for several reasons (among them, it doesn't
really answer my questions below, and it's cumbersome to input different
parameters to try to do so anyway; plus, there seems to be general agreement
that it overvalues by around 10%?). The rest of my studies have similarly
failed to completely address my questions below. Obviously, each of these
will vary a little based on airplane and exact choices made, but I'm looking
for a ballpark.

- Engine time. Seems simple enough--divide the time on the motor by TBO
and multiply by overhaul cost ($25K, I seem to be hearing? [oops! I'm
trying to join this club, better get used to the jargon: make that 25AMU
]). Throw in some English based on the average annual usage (more is
better), and you can compare two different time engines. Fair enough?

- Avionics--the big one. Conventional wisdom seems to be to get the
airplane with all the avionics in it you want, because you'll never get the
same value out of buying new. OK, I'll buy that--but, at some point, the
lines have to cross. To illustrate with an extreme example, assume I find
an otherwise satisfactory airplane that has totally dated avionics. What's
a soup-to-nuts panel cost, brand new, installed? Is 50AMU in the ballpark?
Not chump change (hardly!!), of course--but, it *is* sometimes within the
spread of the price ranges I see in a given model, where the primary
difference appears to be the panel....

- Paint. What's a quality paint job cost? 5AMU?

- Interior. What's a new interior cost? 5AMU?

- Any other big valuation points I should be looking at with a similar eye?

Thanks!
--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change
to contact me)

In article ,
"Douglas Paterson" wrote:

- Engine time. Seems simple enough--divide the time on the motor by TBO
and multiply by overhaul cost ($25K, I seem to be hearing? [oops! I'm
trying to join this club, better get used to the jargon: make that 25AMU
]). Throw in some English based on the average annual usage (more is
better), and you can compare two different time engines. Fair enough?

There is a fudge factor (totally guess work) to account for the type of time
on the engine. Did the airplane sit for months and months between long
flights? 300 hours in ten years isn't as good as 300 hours in 2-3 years.

Also, some engines have a calendar time between overhauls.

I didn't follow your whole thread, did anyone suggest you think about
whether you want an airplane with a run-out engine (you overhaul it and
know that you have a fresh overhaul), mid-time engine (will it really make
TBO?), or fresh overhaul (was it a cheapo overhaul?)?

I ended up buying (and paying for) an airplane with a low-time engine.
It had about 300 hours on it, and only got to around 600 hours before
a couple of cylinders cracked.


- Avionics--the big one. Conventional wisdom seems to be to get the
What's
a soup-to-nuts panel cost, brand new, installed? Is 50AMU in the ballpark?

What's your definition of soup-to-nuts?


- Paint. What's a quality paint job cost? 5AMU?

Around here, 10 AMU.


- Interior. What's a new interior cost? 5AMU?

and possibly more. Less if you do the work yourself.

good luck

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

Douglas Paterson wrote:
Hey, Folks:

Grab a beer on me, I'd like to solicit some more opinions. If you've read
the other thread on airplane comparisons, you know I'm shopping for an
airplane.

So, I have another question. This time, not how to compare airplanes, but
how to make an apples-to-apples comparison (money-wise) between different
specimens of the same model for sale. I've used AOPA's Vref, but it's
unsatisfying in this regard for several reasons (among them, it doesn't
really answer my questions below, and it's cumbersome to input different
parameters to try to do so anyway; plus, there seems to be general agreement
that it overvalues by around 10%?). The rest of my studies have similarly
failed to completely address my questions below. Obviously, each of these
will vary a little based on airplane and exact choices made, but I'm looking
for a ballpark.

http://www.aeroprice.com No vested interest, just a satisfied user. You
can either appraise a specific aircraft for a fee, or buy their software
to use yourself to appraise a specific model. Worth the small expense, IMO.

Dave

.stuff snipped
So, I have another question. This time, not how to compare airplanes, but
how to make an apples-to-apples comparison (money-wise) between different
specimens of the same model for sale.
.lots of stuff snipped

This is the $64,000 question. Many will give some specific examples, but
it should become apparent that this is a bit art and a bit of science.
There are many differences between the factory planes themselves of many
particular models. Paint jobs, interiors and the like are also wildly
variable. Engine condition depends on several factors and not just time
since major overhaul ("SMOH"). Avionics suites can have what appears to
be infinite combinations. They all affect price.

In order to arrive at a reasonable value, you need to look at many
examples, know the various details, SEE the birds, and then know the
asking and ACTUAL selling prices. This is WAY more difficult than it
sounds. Geography is a big factor. How people report what they are
selling is another huge variable. Finally, while the asking price is
posted, you rarely get to know the actual selling price. Not only do you
have to see a lot of birds, you also have to KNOW what you are looking
for and what you are looking at. This takes experience. The average age
of this entire fleet has surpassed 30 years. Age and a bird's history
take way different tolls on them. This all affects price.

The various valuation services give very general pricing based on
certain assumptions, some of which they state in their service. The
pricing between them can be significantly different. Many will argue
about which one is more "accurate" depending on whether they are a buyer
or seller and which service tells them a price they want to hear.

The big complication in all this is emotion. Patience is key at the
exact time when "love" trashes all reason. It may take a long time to
educate yourself. Even if you know what you are looking for and have the
experience, it may take a year to find that exact bird if you are
inflexible and precise in your requirements/cash or that make/model is
rare to begin with.

Some contend that these are the very reasons you should use a broker. In
theory, this is what a broker is paid to do (weed out the junkers from
the cream puffs). In reality, brokers themselves are a huge variable.
Since their primary incentive is moving airplanes for cash, you may not
get a "good" airplane in the end. If you take someone's recommendation
of which broker is "good", that in itself is a giant variable (who knows
if the recommending party is credible - who knows if the bird they
bought is really a junker - and on and on). Brokers themselves affect price.

In the end, with experience, time, money, and good luck, you may find
what appears to be EXACTLY what you are looking for. In time, you may
discover whether this is true or not. Since you cannot disassemble the
entire plane to inspect it, there are many opportunities for hidden
defects lie in wait. Defects you discover before the sale may move the
price a little or a lot. This is a big variable and it also may affect
price.

What's a plane worth?? Whatever someone will PAY. The most difficult
thing to do is to determine the difference between a set of reasonable
compromises and when to walk away.

Finally, if you take the time to do it right, some impatient fool with
more money than brains will likely buy the beast up from under you while
you are doing the research. Because the fleet is shrinking, there are
fewer and fewer choices. The market is reported to be "soft" right now.
So, prices MAY be more flexible on some birds. Everyone's experience is
so very different, it is hard to tell who to believe. There is no
service with a guarantee (you satisfaction or your money back is NOWHERE
to be found in aviation).

Good Luck,
Mike

Valuing similar aircraft is not straight forward, especially so if you have
not flown that make and model often.
Essentially, if you have decided to buy a specific model, the most important
task now is to become the dreaded tyre kicker !
Go look at every aircraft that are accessible to you, no matter the asking
price, that is the only way you will build the knowledge to eventually make
the decision which is right for you.
Test fly as many that will allow you and pay for the fuel !
Take your digital camera and photograph every bird you look at, in detail,
especially the panel.
Go home and study those photographs ......... build your knowledge of that
model and marks of it.
When you know that make and model really well, you are ready to seriously
consider dumping your cash into your very own money pit.
There is a lot of junk sitting on the market, you just have to know enough
to make sure you don't buy one of those.

When you have gone through this process you will know which aircraft
represents the condition and equipment that you are prepared to pay for.
You can use all the valuation aids available, but nothing will beat having
sound knowledge of the condition and equipment in the aircraft on sale and
their asking prices.

You already know that upgrading an aircraft with new avionics, engine work,
interior and exterior work is a costly exercise.
And if you go that route you will need to fly that value out of your bird.

The choice for me, was easier. I had lots of hours both flying and helping
to maintain Piper Archers. So an Archer would become my first airplane.

What should I do though ?
Buy a $95,000 Archer with decent avionics, up to half time engine and good
interior etc or buy an Archer with run-out engine, and more or less as it
left the Piper factory in all departments at a cost of $50,000.

I chose the expensive route, I bought the $50,000 bird and have spent the
last 2 years having a great time fixing it up so everything is as I want it
to be.
I am a mechanical engine and a licensed Radio Amateur, so have good
mechanical and avionic understanding.
When finished I will have about $110,000 in the bird, BUT ...... .....
It now is all new firewall forward, with a top notch engine, complete Garmin
530 Stack with Dacint RSS and all new under panel and avionic wiring.
The "all leather" interior cost $7,000, and stripping and painting gets done
in February at $9,000 plus.
I fitted new flight control cables and Knots 2U wing tips with landing
lights, gap seals and wing root fairings.
And a host of other upgrades to ensure the aircraft is in the very best
mechanical condition. In fact most moving parts are new.

I could have just overhauled the engine, and happily flown this minimum
squawk clean Archer with its factory avionics for many years.
But I relished the enjoyment of planning the work, negotiating the costs and
getting it all done.
So I cannot get back anywhere near the $110,000 that I have spent, but it is
equipped with the best, it flies really nice and will look great after the
paint job.

Would I go this route again ?
Well if I discount buying a new aircraft, yes, I think I would do it this
way again
I did not want a bird sitting in the hanger which had bits and pieces thrown
in by a dozen different owners who never spent the cash needed to properly
gut out the old and replace it all with new. I would have had to live and
maintain with what they left for me.

Know the model you intend to buy really well.
Know the current market prices, and eventually you will make a good decision
when you buy your aircraft.

--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F


"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Douglas Paterson" wrote:

- Engine time. Seems simple enough--divide the time on the motor by TBO
and multiply by overhaul cost ($25K, I seem to be hearing? [oops! I'm
trying to join this club, better get used to the jargon: make that 25AMU
]). Throw in some English based on the average annual usage (more is
better), and you can compare two different time engines. Fair enough?

There is a fudge factor (totally guess work) to account for the type of
time
on the engine. Did the airplane sit for months and months between long
flights? 300 hours in ten years isn't as good as 300 hours in 2-3 years.

Also, some engines have a calendar time between overhauls.

I didn't follow your whole thread, did anyone suggest you think about
whether you want an airplane with a run-out engine (you overhaul it and
know that you have a fresh overhaul), mid-time engine (will it really make
TBO?), or fresh overhaul (was it a cheapo overhaul?)?

I ended up buying (and paying for) an airplane with a low-time engine.
It had about 300 hours on it, and only got to around 600 hours before
a couple of cylinders cracked.


- Avionics--the big one. Conventional wisdom seems to be to get the
What's
a soup-to-nuts panel cost, brand new, installed? Is 50AMU in the
ballpark?

What's your definition of soup-to-nuts?


- Paint. What's a quality paint job cost? 5AMU?

Around here, 10 AMU.


- Interior. What's a new interior cost? 5AMU?

and possibly more. Less if you do the work yourself.

good luck

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

Right now the airplane market is soft. You should be able to get a
plane for 20% or so below TAP (Trade a Plane) appraisal. I highly
recommend you subscribe to Trade a Plane (tradeaplane.com), and learn
how to use their online appraiser. This will give you the asking price
in TAP.

Owner ship Costs:
FIXED COSTS
hangar
insurance
annual

HOURLY COSTS
fuel
maintenance
reserves

Also consider aquisition costs, tax consequences, interest rates.

Buying procedu
Find ad
Call buyer
Get tail number and do a title search
If the plane sounds good over the phone but is far away, hire a
mechanic and tell him to give the plane a compression test and take a
look at the logs. Use AOPA airport guide or similar (airnav.com), to
find a mechanic on the field that is NOT the owners mechanic. This
should be about 2 hour of mechanic time. Also you might have him cut
open the oil filter and take an oil sample.

Negotiate a price.

Visit the plane. Examine the condition. Go for a test flight. Try out
all the avionics and features. Fly the plane (with the owner or an
instructor).

Arrange delivery (a common sticking point). Arrange payment (nothing
beats wire transfer). Deposit is common. Again, make SURE you have
good title (I think title insurance is worth it, just because they do
a good check for leins etc). There are some escrow services. Look at
the ads in TAP.

Take delivery and make payment.

Enjoy your airplane!


As for comparing similar planes, just look at them and decide. There
may be a tie. In that case make low offers on both. Someone may bite.
I have heard of getting planes for as much as 50% below appraisal (the
guy HAS to sell and its been on the market a looong time (like a year
or so)).

One thing. Ownership costs usually exceed aquisition, so try and get
what you want and what you will be happy with. If you have to pay a
bit extra to get what you want it is probably worth it. Dont buy a
project unless you WANT a project. Airplane projects usually go way
over budget by the time they are done.

Good luck!

Doug,
First, you are being a bit to analytical. My thought is to be half
analytical and half romantic! Money is one thing but flying is a
labor of love and you will bond with your plane. I can remember when
my plane (not yet mine) was at my airport in its prebuy. The owner
had delivered it to my A&P. He was thinking sorta "I hope it doesn't
pass so I can fly it home" and I was thinking sorta "doesn't matter,
I'm buying this plane". That was 10 years ago and "we" are still a
pair. I've added maybe 15AMU for electronics but so what.

More directly, be interested in only those things you want to
upgrade. If paint is OK (maybe a 6 or 7) and you don't mind, you
don't have to repaint. Get the idea?

AOPA site gives some idea of value added. Many items add little or no
value but an IFR GPS will add purhaps 1/2 its cost. Still, add what
you want and over time. It is your bird so fall in love and custonize
it.

Chuck

On Jan 28, 2:01 am, "Douglas Paterson"
wrote:
Hey, Folks:

Grab a beer on me, I'd like to solicit some more opinions. If you've read
the other thread on airplane comparisons, you know I'm shopping for an
airplane.

So, I have another question. This time, not how to compare airplanes, but
how to make an apples-to-apples comparison (money-wise) between different
specimens of the same model for sale. I've used AOPA's Vref, but it's
unsatisfying in this regard for several reasons (among them, it doesn't
really answer my questions below, and it's cumbersome to input different
parameters to try to do so anyway; plus, there seems to be general agreement
that it overvalues by around 10%?). The rest of my studies have similarly
failed to completely address my questions below. Obviously, each of these
will vary a little based on airplane and exact choices made, but I'm looking
for a ballpark.

- Engine time. Seems simple enough--divide the time on the motor by TBO
and multiply by overhaul cost ($25K, I seem to be hearing? [oops! I'm
trying to join this club, better get used to the jargon: make that 25AMU
]). Throw in some English based on the average annual usage (more is
better), and you can compare two different time engines. Fair enough?

- Avionics--the big one. Conventional wisdom seems to be to get the
airplane with all the avionics in it you want, because you'll never get the
same value out of buying new. OK, I'll buy that--but, at some point, the
lines have to cross. To illustrate with an extreme example, assume I find
an otherwise satisfactory airplane that has totally dated avionics. What's
a soup-to-nuts panel cost, brand new, installed? Is 50AMU in the ballpark?
Not chump change (hardly!!), of course--but, it *is* sometimes within the
spread of the price ranges I see in a given model, where the primary
difference appears to be the panel....

- Paint. What's a quality paint job cost? 5AMU?

- Interior. What's a new interior cost? 5AMU?

- Any other big valuation points I should be looking at with a similar eye?

Thanks!
--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change
to contact me)

In article ,
Bob Noel wrote:


and another thing... I always figured if you plan on keeping your airplane
for a long time, then the benefit of fixing the way you want it outweighs the
cost of the upgrades vs buying an airplane already equipped.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Paterson ]
Posted At: Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:01 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
Conversation: How to compare/valuation of features
Subject: How to compare/valuation of features

....
- Any other big valuation points I should be looking at with a
similar
eye?

Thanks!
--
Doug
"Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring,
"Twilight
Zone"
(my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate
change
to contact me)


ADs and SBs - some of these can get real important (expensive) real
fast.

Foreign vs. American registry - based on earlier threads, it is almost
cost prohibitive to re-register a foreign registered aircraft into the
United States.

Foreign vs. American registry - based on earlier threads, it is almost
cost prohibitive to re-register a foreign registered aircraft into the
United States.

I imported an Arrow a while back and it was pretty painless except
that the wire service bank gave me a bad exchange rate quote. They
fixed it later and refunded the extra $1500.

I used Aeroprice extensively on my search and found it easy and
helpful.

Assuming ADs and SBs have been c/w, the big variable is whether the
previous owner has been relaxed or anal about minor problems that
eventually become major ones. Somebody on the Cherokee site a year or
so ago discovered severe spar corrosion after buying a Cherokee and
ended up parting out the plane, as the cost of repair exceeded the
value of the aircraft.