Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
ArtKramr wrote:

Casualtis are largley the resilt of statistical happenstance
and chaos theory.

Using that theory, there's no reason to train aircrew beyond the basics of
operating their machine. I mean, if its all "statisical happenstance" then
it
really doesn't matter who's good and who's not.


This is where the disconnect comes in I suspect.

For aircrew of Art's period where flak was the biggest killer
and there was bugger all you could to do about it
statistical happenstance was a biggie. A lot of very
experienced and competent aircrews were lost
attacking the target. Once the bombardier took
over the aircraft had to fly straight and level until
the bombs were gone. During that period the
worst crew in the world and the best crew in the
world have the same chances and this is probably
the most heavily defended piece of sky they'll
cross on the mission. I,ve spoken to a few WW2
aircrews and this was the part of the mission they
hated.

For the RAF on night operations it was in some ways worse,
they had to wait for the phtoflash to go off and get a picture
of the aiming point for BDA. If you didnt bring back
that picture the trip didnt count as a combat mission
towards the total for your trip.

Keith

Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 8/14/2004 3:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

Casualtis are largley the resilt of statistical happenstance
and chaos theory.

Using that theory, there's no reason to train aircrew beyond the basics of
operating their machine. I mean, if its all "statisical happenstance" then it
really doesn't matter who's good and who's not.


BUFDRVR


UYou are overlooking one point. The need to hit the target and that takes
training skill and experience. At least it did in my war. Your mileage may
vary.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: "Keith Willshaw"

asualtis are largley the resilt of statistical happenstance
and chaos theory.

Using that theory, there's no reason to train aircrew beyond the basics of
operating their machine. I mean,

if its all "statisical happenstance" then
it
really doesn't matter who's good and who's not.


This is where the disconnect comes in I suspect.

For aircrew of Art's period where flak was the biggest killer
and there was bugger all you could to do about it
statistical happenstance was a biggie. A lot of very
experienced and competent aircrews were lost
attacking the target. Once the bombardier took
over the aircraft had to fly straight and level until
the bombs were gone. During that period the
worst crew in the world and the best crew in the
world have the same chances and this is probably
the most heavily defended piece of sky they'll
cross on the mission. I,ve spoken to a few WW2
aircrews and this was the part of the mission they
hated.

(snip good stuff)

Keith


Exactly right Keith. .How come you are so smart? (grin)



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:

You are overlooking one point. The need to hit the target and that takes
training skill and experience.

Which has exactly zero to do with survival...at least on that mission.

At least it did in my war. Your mileage may
vary.

Dropping unguided weapons accurately still requires a good OSO or RN.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

ubject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 8/14/2004 7:03 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

You are overlooking one point. The need to hit the target and that takes
training skill and experience.

Which has exactly zero to do with survival...at least on that mission.

At least it did in my war. Your mileage may
vary.

Dropping unguided weapons accurately still requires a good OSO or RN.


BUFDRVR


But whether a stray shot kills you or not has nothing to do with how good an
OSO you are.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: "Keith Willshaw"




Exactly right Keith. .How come you are so smart? (grin)


I'm not but the Lancaster tailgunner who told me this
survived 2 tours and he reckoned that was a
statistical fluke akin to winning the lottery

Keith

Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 8/15/2004 4:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: "Keith Willshaw"




Exactly right Keith. .How come you are so smart? (grin)


I'm not but the Lancaster tailgunner who told me this
survived 2 tours and he reckoned that was a
statistical fluke akin to winning the lottery

Keith



Yup. That's exactly what it is.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 8/15/2004 4:09 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: "Keith Willshaw"




Exactly right Keith. .How come you are so smart? (grin)


I'm not but the Lancaster tailgunner who told me this
survived 2 tours and he reckoned that was a
statistical fluke akin to winning the lottery

Keith



That's a great way to phrase it. Coming back from a mission is like just
having won a lottery. As one of my squadron mates used to say, " I'd rather be
lucky than be smart". A good example of that is found in " Thoughts at the
Funeral for a Stranger" in my website. The entire group came back without a
scratch except for a single gunner struck dead by a single piece of flack. We
were all lucky except for him. Read that combat account of you get a chance.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

As for the ground combatant, there's been a huge change since
Pickett's charge. You might want to examine the two Iraq wars. Both
demonstrate an ability to apply technology for great effect while
experiencing very limited casualties. No casualty is a good thing, but
if you must fight the war, then the goal is for the absolute minimum
and we've gotten pretty darn good at that.

You might want to look at the story in the Philadelphia Inquirer about Echo
Company.
A patrol is still a patrol--you have to get out there to assert control over an
area--and a ambush is still an ambush. All that high tech can't prevent a
modified 1940's panzerfaust/rocket launcher from hitting a truck, or a 1950's
AK-47 from ambushing a patrol, and those are the things filling up the amputee
ward at Walter Reed. The only thing high tech is doing now is keeping people
alive who would have died just a few years ago.
I suppose if they were more competant they'd have found a way to finagle
themselves into a non-combat classification, or not even volunteered. The men
who end up on patrol are ones who win wars; the ones in this war who are
wounded happen to be predominantly the ones who are fighting at rifle range or
closer. They may want to say that they are incompetant, but I think that
judgement belongs to them alone.

I'm not but the Lancaster tailgunner who told me this survived 2 tours and he
reckoned that was a statistical fluke akin to winning the lottery


That was one of the things I liked about the series "Piece of Cake". Some of
the pilots are obsessed with preparation and skill, and they are the ones who
last the longest, but by the end you realize that the odds are neutral, and
that even the best are killed if they keep going up. There is no luck, only the
hope of being ignored by chance.