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#91
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Flaps on take-off and landing
A joke Rodney Dangerfield could have used...
" I don't get no respect, even my Playboy centerfold rejected me." "Roy Smith" wrote in message ... | In article xXfOg.22647$SZ3.11479@dukeread04, | "Jim Macklin" wrote: | | And a Playboy magazine is safer than sex. | | Yeah, but the staples in the centerfold can be painful. |
#92
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Flaps on take-off and landing
"Mxsmanic" ... wrote in message ... I'm surprised that a small handle in the cockpit would provide enough leverage to lower flaps. Isn't there are a lot of aerodynamic pressure to overcome against them (at least if they are lowered in flight)? In a Beech Sundowner the handle is maybe 18" long and looks like a big version of a parking brake lever that you might see in a car. There's more resistance the higher your airspeed, but it pulls up easily enough below the max flaps speed. Also, it's good to have a bit of mechanical feedback like that in case you don't have your wits about you and try to pull flaps at too high an airspeed. Are there good reasons to lower flaps in flight, outside take-off and landing? I've thought that they would be useful for increasing drag and lowering airspeed, but since they apparently cannot be used at high speeds I guess this isn't a good idea. Sometimes if one must descend rapidly just idling the throttle doesn't seem to be enough to stay below hazardous speeds, and few aircraft seem to have speed brakes. Flaps have two main effects, they increase drag, like you said, and they also increase lift and reduce your stall speed. These two effects can be useful at different times. For example, if your wing is on fire and you want to descend quickly, you lower the flaps and descend at Vfe (max speed with flaps extended, top of the white arc). It's an interesting exercise the first time you practice it, with the ground filling up your windscreen like that and all. Another use is when you simply want to fly slower, such as when you're in the traffic pattern and want to avoid getting too close to someone in front of you. You can slow down without flaps, but using them keeps you farther from a stall, which is a good thing at pattern altitude. I'm sure more experienced pilots can give more interesting ways to use flaps in normal flight, but those are the ones that come to mind just now. Tom Young |
#93
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Flaps on take-off and landing
"Jim Macklin" writes:
A real simulator costs more than the airplane it is duplicating, a Beechjet or Boeing simulator can cost $8-10 million dollars or more. Are there full-motions simulators for specific GA aircraft, such as the Baron 58 that I've mentioned? The aircraft apparently costs about $1 million to purchase today, so I should think that someone would have simulators somewhere, but I don't know if a full-motion simulator would be economical. If one exists, it would be fun to fly it. It is worthwhile because it doesn't burn several thousand pounds of fuel per hour, can be run nearly 24/7, rarely kills anyone and it is a safe place to do things that can't be done safely in a real airplane. Also, it allows the airplane to be out earning revenue. Very similar to the reasons for using a PC-based simulator. You get many of the advantages and avoid many of the disadvantages of a real aircraft. Even a PC based training device is very useful for learning and practicing procedures, but you get what you pay for. A King Air trainer with out full visual and motion still allows learning all the systems and practicing the various emergency and abnormal procedures. Are there specific simulator packages for specific aircraft that run on a PC? I've only used MSFS, mainly because it has a very good all-around blend of the kinds of features one might want in a simulator, but I've heard that there are other programs that are very good for specific purposes, such as very intensive IFR training or very accurate flight models. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#94
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Flaps on take-off and landing
Tom Young writes:
Flaps have two main effects, they increase drag, like you said, and they also increase lift and reduce your stall speed. These two effects can be useful at different times. For example, if your wing is on fire and you want to descend quickly, you lower the flaps and descend at Vfe (max speed with flaps extended, top of the white arc). It's an interesting exercise the first time you practice it, with the ground filling up your windscreen like that and all. Another use is when you simply want to fly slower, such as when you're in the traffic pattern and want to avoid getting too close to someone in front of you. You can slow down without flaps, but using them keeps you farther from a stall, which is a good thing at pattern altitude. I'm sure more experienced pilots can give more interesting ways to use flaps in normal flight, but those are the ones that come to mind just now. In simulation it seems that flying slow with flaps extended makes the aircraft more prone to exaggerated movement for a specific control input, especially in larger aircraft. Is an aircraft inherently less stable at slow speeds with flaps extended? If so, is it just because the flaps are out, or is it the slow speed that does it? When flying around a city for fun at low altitudes (2000-3000 feet), I often fly with full flaps and throttles near idle. It makes it easier to go slow and enjoy the view, but I also get the impression that the envelope of safe maneuvering is smaller in this configuration. But I don't know if it's the flaps that do that, or the slow speed, or perhaps both. When I first tried simulation (many years ago now), I was surprised by the drag effect of flaps. I had read about it but I didn't realize it was so significant. I finally understood why I had heard commercial pilots increasing engine speed while approaching a runway on landing. I find myself doing the same thing, to maintain altitude mainly, and also because it seems to improve flight characteristics if one flies with more power (?), as opposed to just gliding in at the slowest possible speed. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#95
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Flaps on take-off and landing
In article SwnOg.22694$SZ3.9372@dukeread04,
"Jim Macklin" wrote: Every airplane with flaps has speed limits with flaps extended. If there is a positive stop, they may have a series of allowable speeds. Why do you say "positive stop"? I think you're talking about: *23.1511***Flap extended speed. (a) The flap extended speed VFE must be established so that it is‹ (1) Not less than the minimum value of VF allowed in 23.345(b); and (2) Not more than VF established under 23.345(a), (c), and (d). (b) Additional combinations of flap setting, airspeed, and engine power may be established if the structure has been proven for the corresponding design conditions. I don't see anything there that mandates a "positive stop". |
#96
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Flaps on take-off and landing
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 02:16:58 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote in : Sometimes if one must descend rapidly just idling the throttle doesn't seem to be enough to stay below hazardous speeds, In those situations, you can descend by flying slowly (slower than Vx) on the other side of the knee in the curve, but you must remain above stall speed. |
#97
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Flaps on take-off and landing
In those situations, you can descend by flying slowly (slower than Vx)
on the other side of the knee in the curve, but you must remain above stall speed. Try it at altitude first so you get a feel for the impending stall should it occur. I did this to a landing once in a spot landing contest where we were not allowed to slip, and I was high. Scared my passenger (also a pilot) though; apparantly he hadn't really done much full-stall slow flight. Jose -- There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#98
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Flaps on take-off and landing
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 02:20:22 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote in : Larry Dighera writes: Are you aware that you are discussing this with one of the programmers who wrote MS Flight Simulator? No, but why would that make any difference? It was just a bit of information I offered. I was thinking you might want to take avail yourself of the opportunity to discuss the product he helped create and you enjoy so much. |
#99
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Flaps on take-off and landing
Mxsmanic wrote:
Are there full-motions simulators for specific GA aircraft, such as the Baron 58 that I've mentioned? Consider making or buying your own. Google for the keywords "full" "motion" "simulator" - you'll come up with a bunch of relevant hits. Here's some: Plans for allegedly building your own for under $350: http://www.acesim.com/main.html Another do-it-yourself set of plans: http://www.simcraft.com/phpPages/products/primusDIY.php Some vendors, no price info: http://www.noonco.com/flyer/ http://www.flightmotion.com/home.htm http://home.claranet.nl/users/wvdlel...h/index-e.html |
#100
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Flaps on take-off and landing
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 02:38:11 GMT, Jose
wrote in : In those situations, you can descend by flying slowly (slower than Vx) on the other side of the knee in the curve, but you must remain above stall speed. Try it at altitude first so you get a feel for the impending stall should it occur. Remember, he's flyin' a sim. I did this to a landing once in a spot landing contest where we were not allowed to slip, and I was high. Scared my passenger (also a pilot) though; apparantly he hadn't really done much full-stall slow flight. Full-stall slow flight. That's an interesting term; you really mean partially stalled, right? |
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