EU as joke (modified)

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:05:41 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote:

(BUFDRVR) wrote in
:

Most europeans know Bush, and his administration, as
responsible for misleading the United Nations, falsifying and
manipulating intelligence information in order to gather
support for the most radical action any nation can undertake -
acts of war against another nation.

Hogwash! His persona in Europe as a "cowboy" predated 9/11/01.
Try again....

Again, I don't know what you mean by "cowboy", but I do know
Bush's image, be it right or not, suffers from his
inability to communcate with a clear sense of depth, wisdom
and well articulation compared to some other US presidents,
or officials. Clinton didn't, Bush senior didn't, Gore didn't..

We rather like having a "cowboy" as President. The fact that
he refuses to sell out US National Security in order to make
some europeans "feel good" is exactly what we want.

You might say "oh where's the politics and intellect in this?"
Well there isn't that much, go figure, but then neither
perhaps is cowboy'ism.

Though much of that perception is completely overshadowed
by the recent scandals. Because that's what it is, scandal. :^/

The "scandal" was europe continuing to support Saddam
right up to the end.

In some ways the US image is that of an extremly competent
offencive machine, but lack the ability to resolve deep
routed cultural or religious conflicts. If nothing else,
then aparently on the basis that they let their own national
interests, or shortsightedness, come in the way for a
real understanding on how to approach something like that.

And europe is sooooo good at that. Remember the Congo?
India?, etc.?

Oh it could be worse of course, but some people should also
start giving way to the though that neither the US nor
europe can manage this problem alone, not even together -
it's a team effort with the rest of the world playing.

Europe has nothing to contribute (excepting, of course, the UK, Poland
and other decent countries). We are not about to sell out our
National Security to some silly, stupid, "international" team.
I believe that it is called the UN, one of the most useless constructs
in all of history.

Though I guess wonder what "cowboy" would amount to these days,
or how many europeans you have spoken with on the matter.


Just returned from 3 weeks in GE and BE and went out one night
with a Belgian who is a future brother-in-law of one of the guys
in my office. Spent over 3 hours talking with him, also had
lunch and dinner with a few SHAPE officers. At least the SHAPE
officers understand the reality of American politics, one in
fact thought the whole European "cowboy" persona was a horrible
blunder of international politics.

I sincerely hope you had an fun and worthwhile trip, but I'm
sure you can see the slim conection in what you write above,
compared to my point. :^)

Just curious, have you ever lived or serviced in europe, or
anywhere else for that matter? I would be surprise if you
hadn't.

I have served in the US Navy, and routinely visited europe.
Other than the RN, their naval forces were a joke (they still
are). I also served quite a bit of time in the Pacific. I much
prefer the latter.

Al Minyard

You mean the europeans who supported Saddam?????

Well, which europeans do you feel supports Saddam?

Chirac, Schroeder, etc. as well as the majority of "european"
individuals (who elected and support the above mentioned
cowards).

Europeans (with a few notable exceptions) are too cowardly
and feeble to do anything, that is except to criticize the
Country that has saved them on several occasions.

I guess ones does what any critic would and should do in
the face of manipulation, express a voice against it.
It takes courage,

No, it takes cowardice and duplicity.

and I know for a fact that many
americans are doing that as well.

But "europeans"? You might wan't to rethink that.

Why? It is perfectly valid.

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 09:54:15 +0100, Ralph Savelsberg wrote:



Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in
:


On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:02:07 GMT, "Bjørnar"
wrote:

(BUFDRVR) wrote in
:



Universally most of Europe knows Bush as a "cowboy". Talk about
intellectual laziness.

Most europeans know Bush, and his administration, as responsible
for misleading the United Nations, falsifying and manipulating
intelligence information in order to gather support for the
most radical action any nation can undertake - acts of war
against another nation.

Though I guess wonder what "cowboy" would amount to these days, or
how many europeans you have spoken with on the matter.



Regards...

You mean the europeans who supported Saddam?????


Well, which europeans do you feel supports Saddam?



I can answer that for him. Any European who thinks that attacking Iraq
wasn't necessarily a good idea in the war against terrorism or who
thinks that attacking Iraq without a clear idea about the follow-up
wasn't very wise.

In his view, (which fits nicely with crude stereotypes about Americans)
displayed here regularly, if you're not with George W. Bush against
Saddam, you obviously must be a Saddam supporter.

He actually called me a Saddam supporter once.

Please Mr. Minyard, feel free to comment if I'm being inaccurate here.

Regards,
Ralph Savelsberg

Not inaccurate, merely either uninformed or cowardly. You know nothing of our
plans in Iraq (you might want to note that Afghanistan is about to vote on a
constitution making it an Islamic Republic). And you are either with us in the
war on terrorism or against us. I know that having to make an actual choice
scares most europeans silly, but, in this case, a decision is mandatory.

We really do not care what europe decides, as they will never be of
any real assistance, but we do need to know who the enemies are.

As for "crude stereotypes", we are the most advanced nation on earth,
as illustrated by the Nobel awards that our people receive. We have
so many foreign students trying to enter our universities that most
have to assign quotas.

Your stereotypes are of no interest or concern for us. If you want to
continue with the fantasy that europe is somehow "cultured" you
can do it with our blessing.

But do not, rpt, not, get in our way.

Al Minyard

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message
...
"William Wright" wrote in message
news:G9xpb.70401$mZ5.436474@attbi_s54...

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message
...

I agree that Chirac should have shut up, too. On the other hand
he had a point: Members of the EU should at least try to speak
with one voice when dealing with the US.

Why?

Well, because it is the point of a political alliance, which is
what the EU is, despite some claims to the contrary.

Ah, I see. An oligarchy. France has spoken, Poland shut up.


--
Emmanuel Gustin
Emmanuel.Gustin -rem@ve- skynet dot be
Flying Guns Page: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/

Alan Minyard wrote:


You mean the europeans who supported Saddam?????


Well, which europeans do you feel supports Saddam?



I can answer that for him. Any European who thinks that attacking Iraq
wasn't necessarily a good idea in the war against terrorism or who
thinks that attacking Iraq without a clear idea about the follow-up
wasn't very wise.

In his view, (which fits nicely with crude stereotypes about Americans)
displayed here regularly, if you're not with George W. Bush against
Saddam, you obviously must be a Saddam supporter.

He actually called me a Saddam supporter once.

Please Mr. Minyard, feel free to comment if I'm being inaccurate here.

Regards,
Ralph Savelsberg


Not inaccurate, merely either uninformed or cowardly.


I was just recycling your reasoning about why Europeans are Saddam
supporters. You actually explained this to me a while ago. I think my
memory about this is fairly accurate.

You know nothing of our
plans in Iraq (you might want to note that Afghanistan is about to vote on a
constitution making it an Islamic Republic).


No, indeed, I don't know your plans in Iraq apart from the: "we're going
to turn it into a shining beacon of democracy for the rest of the Middle
East". You don't know `your' plans in Iraq either. The Iraqis don't know
your plans with Iraq. Heck, I wonder whether the Pentagon knows what its
plans are in Iraq.

And you are either with us in the
war on terrorism or against us. I know that having to make an actual choice
scares most europeans silly, but, in this case, a decision is mandatory.


All of Europe, including France and Germany have decided to support the
US in the `War Against Terrorism'. Stretching that definition to include
Iraq has eroded that support, however.


We really do not care what europe decides, as they will never be of
any real assistance, but we do need to know who the enemies are.


If in your definition being an ally means us answering `How high?'
whenever the US president shouts `jump', I guess we'd rather not be your
allies. BTW, you might want to take a closer look at some of your other
Allies: most notably Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.


As for "crude stereotypes", we are the most advanced nation on earth,
as illustrated by the Nobel awards that our people receive. We have
so many foreign students trying to enter our universities that most
have to assign quotas.




The stereotype would be that Americans think that 'if you're not with
us, you're against us'. Note that I call this stereotype crude, as in
fact all stereotypes are, because I know there are many very nice and
intelligent Americans who, unlike you, are able to see nuances and who
know that if a country fails to agree with the US, that doesn't
necessarily mean it's `THE ENEMY'.
I'm not the one confirming the crude stereotypes here.



Your stereotypes are of no interest or concern for us. If you want to
continue with the fantasy that europe is somehow "cultured" you
can do it with our blessing.


For somebody who doesn't care about the stereotypes you certainly seem
to get upset about them. I can't blame you. If I were an American, I'd
probably be upset about them as well.
BTW: aren't you assuming that since I'm European and disagree with you,
I must be one of those people who think that Europe is more cultured.
Your reply certainly seems to indicate that.
If you are, you're wrong. Europe has a different culture than the US,
both with benefits and drawbacks, depending on which parts of Europe and
the US being compared, since neither are homogeneous. However, I
wouldn't call Europe more cultured. I don't think the ratio of knuckle
headed idiots over smart and or decent people is all that different in
Europe from that in the US.

BTW, I've visited your country for a conference in Texas and a trip
through Colorado, Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. I enjoyed my stay, the
service, the hospitality, and the fantastic landscapes that I've seen. I
have good friends living in your country and regard the standard of the
research being done in your country as very high. Pretty much all
Americans (including Texans) that I've met in person are actually very
likeable people, even though we might disagree on a few issues. I'd
love to visit again, though I doubt I'd ever want to live in the US for
an extended period of time.


But do not, rpt, not, get in our way.

Al Minyard



Regards,
Ralph Savelsberg

(BUFDRVR) wrote in
:

Again, I don't know what you mean by "cowboy", but I do know
Bush's image, be it right or not, suffers from his
inability to communcate with a clear sense of depth, wisdom
and well articulation compared to some other US presidents,
or officials.

You don't what I mean by cowboy?

You might have an entirely different opinion than me.


Come on, there were political
cartoons daily of Bush with a big 10 gallon hat on, riding
horses and performing other such ranch tasks.

Is that being a cowboy? What about Texan? Do you honestly
expect eropeans, or anyone else for that matter, to be
familiar with the Texas culture, and know how to see right
past Bush's religios tenor and blunt language?

In public relations you are taught to talk accross cultures,
for a good reason.


Additionally, his
ranch in Texas was under constant attack in the European press
for being "isolated in the desert".

Just curious, have you ever lived or serviced in europe, or
anywhere else for that matter?

As a bomber guy, it'll be rare if I'm ever permantly stationed
overseas (unless they open a bomb wing on Andersen AFB,
Guam...again), but I spent 5 months at RAF Fairford during
Operation ALLIED FORCE.

Well, do you speak a second or third language?


Regards...

Alan Minyard wrote in
:

We really do not care what europe decides, as they will never be
of any real assistance, but we do need to know who the enemies
are.

It helps to know a bit about what enemies you construct too.
It seem very, very hard for some americans to realize that
people don't axe eachother for no reason.


Regards...

Alan Minyard wrote in
:

You mean the europeans who supported Saddam?????

Well, which europeans do you feel supports Saddam?

Chirac, Schroeder, etc. as well as the majority of "european"
individuals (who elected and support the above mentioned
cowards).

Perhaps you could be a bit more specific? Is there any
quote in particular you can show me that claims
Chirac supports Saddam?


Europeans (with a few notable exceptions) are too cowardly
and feeble to do anything, that is except to criticize the
Country that has saved them on several occasions.

I guess ones does what any critic would and should do in
the face of manipulation, express a voice against it.
It takes courage,

No, it takes cowardice and duplicity.

That would be a contradiction, speaking up -against-
something usually implies a determined and free thinking
mind and idiological standpoint of some kind.

The opposite is non-thinking, or fear from voicing
ones opinion. It might be effective in the midts
of combat, but it's not how we humans generally tic.


and I know for a fact that many
americans are doing that as well.

But "europeans"? You might wan't to rethink that.

Why? It is perfectly valid.

You might want to include the better part of the
world opinion too. And we shouldn't forget the
US opinion, in particular prior to the conflict.



Regards...

In public relations you are taught to talk accross cultures,
for a good reason.


The European press was not attacking Bush for not being good at public
relations, it was much more personal.

Well, do you speak a second or third language?

I was surprised how quickly my German came back when I tried to use it on my
trip, but like was already mentioned here, I haven't had to use it in over 15
years. I guess I would answer that question by saying; no, not without a little
more study or immersion.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Is that being a cowboy? What about Texan? Do you honestly
expect eropeans, or anyone else for that matter, to be
familiar with the Texas culture, and know how to see right
past Bush's religios tenor and blunt language?


Well if you are going to use it as a source of ridicule and insults, then yes,
I would hope that you would know what the words mean.




Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter