TRSA and /X

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Brad Zeigler" wrote in message
...

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but according to the AIM, TRSAs provide
separation between participating VFR aircraft. In class C airspace,
there is only separation between VFR & IFR aircraft. The AIM makes it
sound like TRSAs offer participating aircraft a higher level of
separation services than class C radar services.


I suppose that depends on what you consider a higher level of separation
services to be. In Class C airspace IFR aircraft are separated from all
other aircraft, but in TRSAs they're only separated from other
participating aircraft.

True. I was thinking along the lines of VFR to VFR separation. Manditory
participation in class C doesn't get you that...only Class B. It's
interesting that TRSAs offer VFR to VFR separation, even if only for those
who wish to play along. Perhaps this is an attribute of TRSAs that
differentiate themselves from Class Ds with approach radar services.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Guy Elden Jr" wrote in message
oups.com...

Something I've always wondered... why do TRSAs even exist?



Good question. Nobody seems to know the answer.

Plain language: Because they do not have the trafic load required to be
Class C but much more traffic than what is being loaded into the class D
airports. AIM language: TRSA do not meet the ARSA criteria for
conversion to a Part-71 defined airspace. These criteria are relatively
stingent.




Seems like a dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the
concept of a voluntary controlled airspace?



What seems dangerous about it? TRSAs exist in Class D and Class E airspace
but are not in themselves controlled airspace.
It is a place to get flight following and approach control



Why not a Class C (their closest
cousin as far as I can tell)?

See above



Part of the Airport Radar Service Area (ARSA) plan was to eventually replace
all TRSAs with ARSAs, which are nor Class C airspace. But not all TRSAs met
ARSA requirements.

True




--
--------------------
Scott F. Migaldi
CP-ASEL-IA
MI-150972

Join the PADI Instructor Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PADI-Instructors/

--------------------

Seems like a dangerous proposition to choose some airports as having the
concept of a voluntary controlled airspace?


What seems dangerous about it? TRSAs exist in Class D and Class E airspace
but are not in themselves controlled airspace.

Ah, that's where I made my mistake - thinking that it's controlled
airspace (as in Class B). I just remember my instructor telling me to
always participate when flying into a TRSA, but never really
understanding why it was voluntary in the first place. Thanks for all
the replies everyone!

--
Guy

"Guy Elden Jr" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ah, that's where I made my mistake - thinking that it's controlled
airspace (as in Class B). I just remember my instructor telling me to
always participate when flying into a TRSA, but never really
understanding why it was voluntary in the first place.


If it was not voluntary it would have the properties of Class B airspace.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...
TRSAs exist in Class D and Class E airspace, but are not a type of
controlled airspace.

I never said they were.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

I never said they were.

Try to follow the thread, Peter.

Guy Elden Jr wrote:

Ah, that's where I made my mistake - thinking that it's controlled
airspace (as in Class B).

So here's a followup question: We know the TRSA space coexists with the
class E airspace. Does it also coexist with the class D airspace "in" the
TRSA airspace? Or are TRSA and class D mutually exclusive?

Does the answer to this question make any practical difference?

- Andrew

"Scott Migaldi" wrote in message
...

Plain language: Because they do not have the trafic load required to be
Class C but much more traffic than what is being loaded into the class D
airports.


Do they? How does the traffic count at airports with Class D airspace and
TRSAs compare with the traffic count at Class D airports with TRACONs that
do not have TRSAs?

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

The predate ARSA's. TRSA's existed when there were only TCA's nad the
FAA hadn't invented ARSA's.


They both predate, and are left-over from, the relevant time periods.

I don't know what above means, but the original statement is still
correct. TRSA's existed long before ARSA's were "invented."

TRSA's are NOT controlled airspace in themselves. Just wannabe radar
service zones.


I don't understand your statement. I've never heard of a TRSA existing in
Class G airspace. All of the ones I've seen have been in Class E airspace,
which certainly is controlled airspace.

But they are not controlled airspace in themselves. It's entirely
analogous to the old airport traffic areas. They were NOT controlled
airspace. A TRSA is just a bunch of lines on the chart that says
"radar services available here."


You are welcome to that opinion. I happen to disagree. It provides a
higher level of service than that offered by most towers in Class D
airspace, and a lower level of service than that offered by radar facilities
in Class C airspace.

It provides different service. A TRSA provides radar service when
class D does not (generally, although there's almost always a class D
tower in the middle of a TRSA). However some class D's provide
radar services without being TRSA's. TRSA's have the side effect of
not necessarily having all the aircraft within it participate, which
makes it inferior to class D and C.


It is a region within Class E airspace where a slightly different type of
radar service is offered from that normally found in Class E airspace. I
would be amazed if there was a TRSA outside of controlled airspace.

It's not always class E.

I certainly don't disagree with your last sentence. That doesn't mean a
TRSA isn't in controlled airspace though.

It's NOT controlled airspace. There are 5 kinds of controlled airspace
in the US: A, B, C, D, and E. They do not overlap. A TRSA may overlap
controlled airspace, but it's jut another concept like a RESTRICTED AREA
etc...

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:54:05 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
et::


TRSAs exist in Class D and Class E airspace, but are not a type of
controlled airspace.

So then is it correct, that if the TRSA controller issues an
instruction to you as a participatory flight, you are only obliged to
follow that instruction if you choose? Or are participating flights
required to follow TRSA controllers' instructions or cancel Stage
Three participation?