How high does your club tow?

On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 16:10:42 -0700, markmocho53 wrote:

I am not connected with the Perlan Project, except as being friends with
many of the participants, so any errors in the above explanation are
mine alone. Best of luck to Perlan, and congratulations on the 62k
altitude flight!

I have even less connection to the project (if possible), but I was
curious about the rules for Absolute altitude records, so I visited the
FAI website and looked them up.

The rules only say 'climb more than 5000m above release height' and
(obviously) the claimed height must exceed the last claim by some margin.
I didn't look at that, so don't know what the margin is. So, as the most
recent flight released at about 40,000ft and got to 62000+, it just
boosted the record by around 10,000 ft.

Jolly Good Show, Chaps!


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 10:52:43 AM UTC-7, Wyll Surf Air wrote:
On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 6:15:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour..

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner

It depends on the location and the reason for the high tows. In some operations out here in the west a longer tow is required to get into lift on a normal day. Hollister or Santa Ynez for example, I think Williams might be the same way as well but I have not flown out there so I can't comment. I don't think a 7000ft AGL tows are common but I think the 4000ft to 5000ft AGL range is pretty common. If they are towing up into the mountains to get into working lift than it seems acceptable as long as the line for tows isn't to long. On the other hand, if they are just towing that high for a sled ride that seems a bit counterproductive for anyone except a commercial ride operation.

Back in 2001 I was visiting the USA and dropped in at a club near Joliet IL and took a flight with an instructor in a Duo Discus (which I hadn't previously flown, although I had a fair bit of experience in a Janus).

I surprised the heck out of the instructor by releasing in lift at 700 ft AGL!

The thermal turned out to be a bit weaker than I'd expected and it took maybe 10 minutes to get up to 1000 ft, but then it got better and pretty soon we were at 5000 ft and went for a nice cruise around the area.

An instructor on a check ride in a Grob at Omarama in 1994 criticised me for towing straight through a booming thermal at 1500 ft.

Ever since then if I see the vario get pegged on tow [1] I start counting and if I get past ten then as soon as the tug flies out of the lift and drops away below me I pull the pin and turn hard back once I see the rope gone. It saves money, but the only downside is you don't get to practice your slack rope recovery technique :-) :-)

[1] except in a PW5. The vario is always pegged on tow in a PW5 behind a Pawnee.

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 8:15:15 PM UTC-5, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 10:52:43 AM UTC-7, Wyll Surf Air wrote:
On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 6:15:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl.. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour.

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner

It depends on the location and the reason for the high tows. In some operations out here in the west a longer tow is required to get into lift on a normal day. Hollister or Santa Ynez for example, I think Williams might be the same way as well but I have not flown out there so I can't comment.. I don't think a 7000ft AGL tows are common but I think the 4000ft to 5000ft AGL range is pretty common. If they are towing up into the mountains to get into working lift than it seems acceptable as long as the line for tows isn't to long. On the other hand, if they are just towing that high for a sled ride that seems a bit counterproductive for anyone except a commercial ride operation.

Back in 2001 I was visiting the USA and dropped in at a club near Joliet IL and took a flight with an instructor in a Duo Discus (which I hadn't previously flown, although I had a fair bit of experience in a Janus).

I surprised the heck out of the instructor by releasing in lift at 700 ft AGL!

The thermal turned out to be a bit weaker than I'd expected and it took maybe 10 minutes to get up to 1000 ft, but then it got better and pretty soon we were at 5000 ft and went for a nice cruise around the area.

An instructor on a check ride in a Grob at Omarama in 1994 criticised me for towing straight through a booming thermal at 1500 ft.

Ever since then if I see the vario get pegged on tow [1] I start counting and if I get past ten then as soon as the tug flies out of the lift and drops away below me I pull the pin and turn hard back once I see the rope gone. It saves money, but the only downside is you don't get to practice your slack rope recovery technique :-) :-)

[1] except in a PW5. The vario is always pegged on tow in a PW5 behind a Pawnee.

Bruce, you must have flown at Chicago Glider Club in our Duo. Nobody here would today be surprised if you released low, I do it all the time (except for some tows to 2,000' when ballasted). I take pride in releasing low and thermaling away from anything above 1,000'. Once a year I may need a relight.. My buddies still take high tows, though.
Herb

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 6:41:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 8:15:15 PM UTC-5, Bruce Hoult wrote:
Back in 2001 I was visiting the USA and dropped in at a club near Joliet IL and took a flight with an instructor in a Duo Discus (which I hadn't previously flown, although I had a fair bit of experience in a Janus).

I surprised the heck out of the instructor by releasing in lift at 700 ft AGL!

The thermal turned out to be a bit weaker than I'd expected and it took maybe 10 minutes to get up to 1000 ft, but then it got better and pretty soon we were at 5000 ft and went for a nice cruise around the area.

An instructor on a check ride in a Grob at Omarama in 1994 criticised me for towing straight through a booming thermal at 1500 ft.

Ever since then if I see the vario get pegged on tow [1] I start counting and if I get past ten then as soon as the tug flies out of the lift and drops away below me I pull the pin and turn hard back once I see the rope gone. It saves money, but the only downside is you don't get to practice your slack rope recovery technique :-) :-)

[1] except in a PW5. The vario is always pegged on tow in a PW5 behind a Pawnee.

Bruce, you must have flown at Chicago Glider Club in our Duo. Nobody here would today be surprised if you released low, I do it all the time (except for some tows to 2,000' when ballasted). I take pride in releasing low and thermaling away from anything above 1,000'. Once a year I may need a relight. My buddies still take high tows, though.

Yes. I'd just moved to Chicago on an H-1B visa and was looking around for a place to fly. Unfortunately the dotcom crash happened right then and the job disappeared and I had to return to NZ. Looked like a nice setup and I liked how there were members' houses nestled in trees on the field boundary. I'd love to see something similar happen at the field Wellington Gliding Club is developing now, but although they plan to put some small chalets and a bunkhouse on the field they are for unknown reasons against permanent residents.

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 10:15:03 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 6:41:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 8:15:15 PM UTC-5, Bruce Hoult wrote:
Back in 2001 I was visiting the USA and dropped in at a club near Joliet IL and took a flight with an instructor in a Duo Discus (which I hadn't previously flown, although I had a fair bit of experience in a Janus).

I surprised the heck out of the instructor by releasing in lift at 700 ft AGL!

The thermal turned out to be a bit weaker than I'd expected and it took maybe 10 minutes to get up to 1000 ft, but then it got better and pretty soon we were at 5000 ft and went for a nice cruise around the area.

An instructor on a check ride in a Grob at Omarama in 1994 criticised me for towing straight through a booming thermal at 1500 ft.

Ever since then if I see the vario get pegged on tow [1] I start counting and if I get past ten then as soon as the tug flies out of the lift and drops away below me I pull the pin and turn hard back once I see the rope gone. It saves money, but the only downside is you don't get to practice your slack rope recovery technique :-) :-)

[1] except in a PW5. The vario is always pegged on tow in a PW5 behind a Pawnee.

Bruce, you must have flown at Chicago Glider Club in our Duo. Nobody here would today be surprised if you released low, I do it all the time (except for some tows to 2,000' when ballasted). I take pride in releasing low and thermaling away from anything above 1,000'. Once a year I may need a relight. My buddies still take high tows, though.

Yes. I'd just moved to Chicago on an H-1B visa and was looking around for a place to fly. Unfortunately the dotcom crash happened right then and the job disappeared and I had to return to NZ. Looked like a nice setup and I liked how there were members' houses nestled in trees on the field boundary.. I'd love to see something similar happen at the field Wellington Gliding Club is developing now, but although they plan to put some small chalets and a bunkhouse on the field they are for unknown reasons against permanent residents.

I think that is smart. Otherwise some nonpilot descendant inherits the house then starts making noise complaints...

On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 9:15:26 AM UTC-4, wrote:

We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl.

NEW Members? How extraordinary. Are they less than 70 years old?

These young kids sound like they're new to the sport, have money to spend and want to get up into the mountains ASAP, and they want to have a great chance of not landing out. This is what works for them.

If you want to retain them as members, you could find a way to make it work for everybody in the club. Or you could tell them, 'my way or the highway!'.

Chasing away new members that do not conform to tradition is self-defeating.. The line of gliders waiting for tows is getting shorter every year.

On the other hand, maybe your training program falls short of training people in the 'old ways': get off tow at 2000 AGL, climb to 14,000 MSL, and make it back to the airport without landing out. Teach the 'high tow kids' how to do this and maybe they will start spending less money on tows. That would be good, right?

We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl.
...
On the other hand, maybe your training program falls short of training
people in the 'old ways': get off tow at 2000 AGL, climb to 14,000 MSL, and
make it back to the airport without landing out. Teach the 'high tow kids'
how to do this and maybe they will start spending less money on tows. That
would be good, right?

FWIW (continuing w. the somewhat-related thread drift), for my club (based on
a busy GA/glider A/P), there's a geographical element (relatively nearby Rocky
Mountains) inevitably/near-irresistably contributing to requests for high
tows. My tow policy was to - on days believed soarable - pop off tow in the
2nd lift encountered (the first often being "too close to" the busy traffic
pattern for safety's sake). Worked for everyone...and as a soaring concept
seemed pretty sensible all-'round, as it (most days) also permitted connecting
with ""distant mountain lift in a reasonable amount of elapsed time."

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Since the question originated from Black Forest, and I used to fly and
tow there, let me say that there are two (possibly more) very landable
fields
,21008m/data=%213m1%211e3%214m5%213m4%211s0x876cc7e68105c2 43:0x102f52ea6c71d282%218m2%213d39.2233234%214d-104.6410838
between the airport and the mountains.Â* I've landed at each of those.Â*
Either is suitable for air retrieve. Those and a couple of really good
peaks and ridges between, as well, make getting off tow at 2,000' AGL
(9,000' MSL) and making it to the mountains is not that big of a deal.Â*
Towing to 14,000' MSL (7,000' AGL) is tantamount to a participation
trophy.Â* How well has that worked out for our youth?

Instead of catering to kids throwing tantrums, we should act like good
parents and teach them self-sufficiency.Â* That helps them in the long
run along with the rest of the club members.Â* My 2 cents.

On 8/28/2018 7:23 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 9:15:26 AM UTC-4, wrote:

We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl.
NEW Members? How extraordinary. Are they less than 70 years old?

These young kids sound like they're new to the sport, have money to spend and want to get up into the mountains ASAP, and they want to have a great chance of not landing out. This is what works for them.

If you want to retain them as members, you could find a way to make it work for everybody in the club. Or you could tell them, 'my way or the highway!'.

Chasing away new members that do not conform to tradition is self-defeating. The line of gliders waiting for tows is getting shorter every year.

On the other hand, maybe your training program falls short of training people in the 'old ways': get off tow at 2000 AGL, climb to 14,000 MSL, and make it back to the airport without landing out. Teach the 'high tow kids' how to do this and maybe they will start spending less money on tows. That would be good, right?


--
Dan, 5J

On 8/27/2018 8:15 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
"...but although they plan to put some small chalets and a bunkhouse
on the field they are for unknown reasons against permanent residents."

Maybe because sooner or later the permanent residents, who aren't
necessarily glider pilots, will start to complain about the noise. (From
personal experience)
--
Dan, 5J

The late, great "OF" Bill Bartell, never took more than 1000' tow and then only because it was the least he could pay. I never saw him have to do a relight I usually wait for 1500 myself.

CH ASW27