soaring into the future

Our club operates a winch from a public airport. The
FOB manager is very supportive. It takes some planning.
It requires you to discuss with your club and discuss
directly with the FOB manager. Prepare a presentation
(BTW nothing fancy), prepare a written agreement, discuss
safety, operations, and the airports revenue sharing
amount. This is a critical step as most FOB managers
must report the activity to the city/county airport
board. The BGA has emmense experience and offer a lot
of documentation to assist you. USE IT. Back up what
you tell the FOB. Bring in some experienced winch operators
for your first weekend. It works.

I was thinking about the bait switch today and how
that works. I laughed when I thought about a reverse
way to use it. One of our students had been training
on aero tow. Paying about $30/tow. He was only doing
2-3 tows every couple of weeks. You could see he was
on the edge of losing interest. Our winch operations
came along at just the right time. We only charge $10/waunch.
This student took 3 waunches the first day and 9 waunches
the next. He was so hooked he then ran for a club officer
position. He exclaimed '9 flights for the price of
3'. WOW.
So have a new student pay for 3 aero tows for $90,
then introduce them to 9 waunches for the same price.
And guess what, they also get 3 times the practice.

If you want a copy of our presentation and other materials,
drop me a line.


SAM


At 16:42 28 December 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:

'toad' wrote in message
.
com...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think
the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt
that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would
allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with
aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the
US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated
an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the
northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that
has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several
million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive
compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch
and the response was
'bring it on'. It seems almost universal that glider
pilots assume winch
operations would be turned down so they don't actually
ask. Ask in a
reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally
served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations
at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared.
(Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.)
That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which,
to a degree, depends on
public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring
100's of operations per
day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good,
particularly if those
operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots
of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't
hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.

On Dec 28, 3:37*pm, toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. *I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. * So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation.

Has anyone in the states considered using Rotax-powered aircraft for
towing? The Rotax Falke has a tow limit of 650 kg (around 1,400 lbs I
think) and a surprisingly good climb rate with just 100 hp - though it
is a motor glider afterall (and you can use it for land out training
too, amortizing the costs). The beauty of Rotax-powered aircraft is
their running costs - around 1/4 of those of a Pawnee. That's a
seriously big increase in your profit margin per tow.

If you're at a hot n high airport there is a turbo variant of the
Rotax, but I don't think it's been fitted to the Falke. There is the
G109 which is a GRP motor glider with the turbo engine, but when the
high-boost period (five minutes) is used up the climb rate drops
dramatically.

Though by the sounds of later replies, beginning winch launching
sounds a lot more realistic in the US than some might think.


Dan

Frank Whiteley wrote:

You will get much less objection to establishing a new gliderport with
a winch than a tow plane. Land can also be mixed use, and leased,
rather than purchased. Local regulations can be problematic or not.
If you are in a club, you will likely get more objection from your
geezer members to setting up a winch only club than you will from
neighbors.

I'd like to ask a favor of everyone: let's find a more accurate and less
prejudicial term than "geezer" for people that don't want change or
reflexively favor aerotow. It's gratuitous, and disparagement apparently
based on age isn't going to win any of the friends we'll need to improve
soaring. It may also blind people to the fact that a lot of us "geezers"
support smaller, simpler, lighter, and cheaper soaring.

Maybe "reflexive aerotow promoters", "anti-change group", or
"short-sighted club officers"?

Or even skip the label entirely. The above statement could have used
"some members" just as effectively as "geezer", especially since the
poster was just speculating.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Dec 28, 12:15 pm, Brad wrote:
Frank,

I think the Wenatechee ridge site is still there, but am not aware if
it is still being used.

The area I am talking about is in the town of Monroe WA and the valley
land is all pasture and flood plain, so there will never be any
development there. Do you remember a few months agao all tha flood
coverage in WA state? well, the Skykomish valley and the Carnation
valley were covered quite a bit in the news......these are 2 prime
"valley floor" areas that are at the base of the long ridge I am
referring too. I suppose you could google earth up the area and see
the topo view of the place. I think it has great promise. There are
acres of flat valley land that might be attractive for a farmer to
lease out to a local soaring group.

Perfect place for a winch already, and if the land on top could be
made into some kind of flying park; for gliders, hang gliders and
paragliders, we could prepare a really nice facility. Years ago there
were 2 great places to hang glide in that area. I still hold a few
local records from those sites.

Another thing that I find attractive is using SLA aircraft with super
quiet and efficient engines towing up lightweight sailplanes. This
combination might assuage the local populations fears about noise.

I hope our club will investigate these options and locations.

Brad

A few months ago? It was less than a month. I drove through there
the Sunday after Thanksgiving then north on the Jordan Road by Deer
Mountain then Hwy 9 to enter Canada at Sumas. Glad we got out of
there before the big storm. I agree, that area has potential and a
population base.

Frank

Frank,

Yep, how time seems to fly.............Jordan Road eh...........you
were right along the foothills we use to stair step our way back to
the mountains when we tow out of Arlington. If that's the same Jordan
road just east of Arlington.

If you came over US-2 then just as you came thru Sultan you were
looking slightly SW to the ridge I am talking about.

Call me next time you are in the area!

Brad




On Dec 28, 12:57*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Dec 28, 12:15 pm, Brad wrote:





Frank,

I think the Wenatechee ridge site is still there, but am not aware if
it is still being used.

The area I am talking about is in the town of Monroe WA and the valley
land is all pasture and flood plain, so there will never be any
development there. Do you remember a few months agao all tha flood
coverage in WA state? well, the Skykomish valley and the Carnation
valley were covered quite a bit in the news......these are 2 prime
"valley floor" areas that are at the base of the long ridge I am
referring too. I suppose you could google earth up the area and see
the topo view of the place. I think it has great promise. There are
acres of flat valley land that might be attractive for a farmer to
lease out to a local soaring group.

Perfect place for a winch already, and if the land on top could be
made into some kind of flying park; for gliders, hang gliders and
paragliders, we could prepare a really nice facility. Years ago there
were 2 great places to hang glide in that area. I still hold a few
local records from those sites.

Another thing that I find attractive is using SLA aircraft with super
quiet and efficient engines towing up lightweight sailplanes. This
combination might assuage the local populations fears about noise.

I hope our club will investigate these options and locations.

Brad

A few months ago? *It was less than a month. *I drove through there
the Sunday after Thanksgiving then north on the Jordan Road by Deer
Mountain then Hwy 9 to enter Canada at Sumas. *Glad we got out of
there before the big storm. *I agree, that area has potential and a
population base.

Frank- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 25 Dec, 23:05, "Newill\" \"Mario Lazaga\""
wrote:

How about a trainer that cannot go higher than 4 - 6 - 8 - 10 feet? if
one had a way to have a primary glider - with self launch capability
[ or tow down the wire with a winch?] and it could not go high enought
to cause great damage on rough landings - then maybe the teens could
teach themselves along side the runway while the big ships launch -
and then play on the runway ( yeah, I know that won't work at some
sites ) and "hop" into the air ten or twenty times in 30 minutes to
get the idea of basic controls and landing understood.

Traditional primaries (SG-38, Eon Primary, Slingsby T38 and lots more)
had an elevator stop for exactly this reason. Ground slides, low hops,
high hops, full launch. Ann Welch was one of the most vocal advocates
of two-seater training because of the high level of accidents and
injuries with solo training. However, modern design might improve
things a lot ... it would be interesting to see what a 2008 Primary
might look like.

Ian

On 25 Dec, 23:39, wrote:
The ideal recreational next generation sailplane?

Gliders that are self-launch and jet-powered.

I can't see the point in jets, really. They are much better at higher
altitudes - when you get lower down you really need a propellor. Small
jet sustainers might be fun, though and the 200N thrust required to
keep a 1000kg 50:1 glider up should be quite achievable.

Ian

On Dec 28, 2:45 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
You will get much less objection to establishing a new gliderport with
a winch than a tow plane. Land can also be mixed use, and leased,
rather than purchased. Local regulations can be problematic or not.
If you are in a club, you will likely get more objection from your
geezer members to setting up a winch only club than you will from
neighbors.

I'd like to ask a favor of everyone: let's find a more accurate and less
prejudicial term than "geezer" for people that don't want change or
reflexively favor aerotow. It's gratuitous, and disparagement apparently
based on age isn't going to win any of the friends we'll need to improve
soaring. It may also blind people to the fact that a lot of us "geezers"
support smaller, simpler, lighter, and cheaper soaring.

Maybe "reflexive aerotow promoters", "anti-change group", or
"short-sighted club officers"?

Or even skip the label entirely. The above statement could have used
"some members" just as effectively as "geezer", especially since the
poster was just speculating.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Even though I am one, I apologize. Resistence to change comes at any
age when someone's comfort level is challenged.

Frank

This thread sent me searching for quotes and I found three I liked - two
attributed to Charles Darwin and one by John Maxwell.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most
intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to
change."

And:

"To change is difficult. Not to change is fatal."

And from John maxwell:

"People underestimate their capacity for change. There is never a right time
to do a difficult thing. A leader's job is to help people have vision of
their potential."

Whether we like it or not, winch launch will be part of our future - we have
no real alternative. To paraphrase Darwin, the survivors will winch launch.

There may be improvements in aero tow and motorgliders will continue to be
popular but winch launch has by far the greatest potential to impact the
economics of gliding.

Adopting winch launch is NOT easy. Almost everything we know about aero tow
either doesn't apply or requires significant change. Even things we think
we know about winch launch is likely to be wrong or even dangerous. Winch
launch must be approached with knowledge and dicipline at both the
individual and organizational level.

Suggestions made here that US operations adopt the BGA winch launch manuals
is something I strongly support. I would suggest equal emphasis on the
German DAeC winch manuals which are available in English. The German
manuals tend to be more engineering orientated and less traditional than the
British. Keep in mind all these manuals assume the reader has a significant
knowledge of winch launch. Here usenet discussions can be very helpful.

Access to "winch friendly" airfields will be a problem for a long time.
Many have said this is the toughest nut to crack and they may be right. The
only "right time" to start solving this problem is now. I think every club
should have a standing committee tasked with "winch site search".

Bill Daniels

"Ian" wrote in message
...
On 25 Dec, 23:05, "Newill\" \"Mario Lazaga\""
wrote:

How about a trainer that cannot go higher than 4 - 6 - 8 - 10 feet? if
one had a way to have a primary glider - with self launch capability
[ or tow down the wire with a winch?] and it could not go high enought
to cause great damage on rough landings - then maybe the teens could
teach themselves along side the runway while the big ships launch -
and then play on the runway ( yeah, I know that won't work at some
sites ) and "hop" into the air ten or twenty times in 30 minutes to
get the idea of basic controls and landing understood.

Traditional primaries (SG-38, Eon Primary, Slingsby T38 and lots more)
had an elevator stop for exactly this reason. Ground slides, low hops,
high hops, full launch. Ann Welch was one of the most vocal advocates
of two-seater training because of the high level of accidents and
injuries with solo training. However, modern design might improve
things a lot ... it would be interesting to see what a 2008 Primary
might look like.

Ian

I think the 2008 version of this is a flight simulator.

Bill Daniels