soaring into the future

On 26 Dec, 20:26, Marc Ramsey wrote:

How can anyone be assured of a 1000+ production run in a shrinking
market that has never seen 1000+ unit production of any design?

Over 2,500 Blaniks, 1,400 Ka-6's (all variants) and 1,100 Ka-8's were
built. I can't offhand think of (or find) any other 1,000+ runs, but
there have been some pretty big productions. There were at least 800
Grunau Babies, 776 Pirats, 700 Schweizer 1-26's, 700 ASK13's, 620
Bocians and 600 Standard Libelles.

The
glider manufacturers are smart, but I think they are in a death spiral
of building ever more sophisticated designs for a shrinking population
that can afford them.

And just to make matters worse, the long lifespans of plastic gliders
mean that second-hand performance is comparatively cheap. Glider
pilots generally - I think - prefer performance to newness, so a
£15,000 mass-produced glider would be up against hordes of second hand
Libelles, ASW-19's, Pegases, Astirs, Jantars and so on. That, I think,
is what killed the PW-5. About the only country where it did well was
New Zealand where - as I understand it - there was a large fleet of
elderly Ka-6's and the like and little by way of more modern
fibreglass trickling down through the market.

Ian

On 26 Dec, 22:31, wrote:

Well, the PW-5 did not failed. It was designed to meet the
requirements and concept promoted by the FAI. That concept called for
glider with L/D in low 30-ties.

But the FAI didn't specify the price, did they? If the PW-5 had cost
£7,500 fully instrumented and with trailer they'd have sold lots here.
But priced alongside second hand Pegases they didn't stand a chance.

Ian

On Dec 28, 10:06 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
There may be improvements in aero tow and motorgliders will continue to be
popular but winch launch has by far the greatest potential to impact the
economics of gliding.

I hope left-of-pond people don't emphasise the cost to the
exclusion of other important points:
- winch launches are *fun*, both to watch and to do.
My 15yo liked her trial flight in an aerotow, but was
hooked by her first winch launch
- winches are great for training - lots of circuits in a
short time
- even training for launch failures is fun
- when you're learning, the short time in the air isn't
seen as a negative

Of course aerotows have advantages as well

Adopting winch launch is NOT easy. Almost everything we know about aero tow
either doesn't apply or requires significant change. Even things we think
we know about winch launch is likely to be wrong or even dangerous. Winch
launch must be approached with knowledge and dicipline at both the
individual and organizational level.
Suggestions made here that US operations adopt the BGA winch launch manuals
is something I strongly support. I would suggest equal emphasis on the
German DAeC winch manuals which are available in English. The German
manuals tend to be more engineering orientated and less traditional than the
British. Keep in mind all these manuals assume the reader has a significant
knowledge of winch launch.

All very true, of course.

Here usenet discussions can be very helpful.

And also misleading at times. Witness the recent AoA thread.

[From the Wiktionary]
Geezer is a British slang term, in its simplest form
meaning a man.

Derived from the differently pronounced 'guiser', a
name for an actor in a mime. [1] Possibly related to
disguise. In this sense it refers to a kind of everyman.

It may be used in a number of senses; to refer to a
man whose name you do not know, similar to use of the
word guy. It is also used to refer to a man who is
overtly manly, masculine, or heterosexual, also someone
noticeably capable, reliable, plainspeaking or down-to-earth.
Although essentially a masculine quality it is not
synonymous with macho however, and its usage may be
thought of as very similar to that of the US English
word dude. Example: Joe Cole referred to Prince William
as a 'nice, relaxed geezer.' [2] In the British 1971
pop song by the Piglets, aka Jonathon King, 'Johnny
Reggae' was described as being 'a real tasty geezer'.

In the United States and Canada, geezer generally refers
to an old man, or more liberally, any old person, usually
eccentric. This may derive from redundant use of the
word old in English as in: who's that old geezer? where
the subject is not necessarily an elderly person. [3].
This is an example of etymological contamination.

In Australia, the term geezer is often used to refer
to someone from England, due to the belief that the
English say geezer a lot; however, it is not as popular
as the term pommy.[citation needed]

Because the population is aging in America, the term
is slowly being broadened to include older women as
well and imply a kind of colorful eccentricity, as
well. For example, The Geezer Brigade, an online humor
organization for 'clever old people', is split between
men and women whose average age is 70.
[End of quote]

The Germans have a term Geise which means an old man
and it is a very respectful term.

[edit] Other usesAt 21:54 28 December 2007, Frank Whiteley
wrote:
On Dec 28, 2:45 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
You will get much less objection to establishing
a new gliderport with
a winch than a tow plane. Land can also be mixed
use, and leased,
rather than purchased. Local regulations can be
problematic or not.
If you are in a club, you will likely get more objection
from your
geezer members to setting up a winch only club than
you will from
neighbors.

I'd like to ask a favor of everyone: let's find a
more accurate and less
prejudicial term than 'geezer' for people that don't
want change or
reflexively favor aerotow. It's gratuitous, and disparagement
apparently
based on age isn't going to win any of the friends
we'll need to improve
soaring. It may also blind people to the fact that
a lot of us 'geezers'
support smaller, simpler, lighter, and cheaper soaring.

Maybe 'reflexive aerotow promoters', 'anti-change
group', or
'short-sighted club officers'?

Or even skip the label entirely. The above statement
could have used
'some members' just as effectively as 'geezer', especially
since the
poster was just speculating.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
* 'Transponders in Sailplanes'http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* 'A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation'
atwww.motorglider.org

Even though I am one, I apologize. Resistence to change
comes at any
age when someone's comfort level is challenged.

Frank

Where is 'here?' Does =A37,500 mean Australian 'Thalers?'

Most of us think r.a.s. is at home.

At 22:24 28 December 2007, Ian wrote:
On 26 Dec, 22:31,
wrote:

Well, the PW-5 did not failed. It was designed to
meet the
requirements and concept promoted by the FAI. That
concept called for
glider with L/D in low 30-ties.

But the FAI didn't specify the price, did they? If
the PW-5 had cost
=A37,500 fully instrumented and with trailer they'd
have sold lots here.
But priced alongside second hand Pegases they didn't
stand a chance.

Ian

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:45:32 GMT, Eric Greenwell
wrote:

Frank Whiteley wrote:

You will get much less objection to establishing a new gliderport with
a winch than a tow plane. Land can also be mixed use, and leased,
rather than purchased. Local regulations can be problematic or not.
If you are in a club, you will likely get more objection from your
geezer members to setting up a winch only club than you will from
neighbors.

I'd like to ask a favor of everyone: let's find a more accurate and less
prejudicial term than "geezer" for people that don't want change or
reflexively favor aerotow. It's gratuitous, and disparagement apparently
based on age isn't going to win any of the friends we'll need to improve
soaring. It may also blind people to the fact that a lot of us "geezers"
support smaller, simpler, lighter, and cheaper soaring.

Maybe "reflexive aerotow promoters", "anti-change group", or
"short-sighted club officers"?

Or even skip the label entirely. The above statement could have used
"some members" just as effectively as "geezer", especially since the
poster was just speculating.

My definition of "geezer" is "pilot who has more hours on fire than I
have on actual instruments." An honorable title.

rj

My definition of "geezer" is "pilot who has more hours on fire than I
have on *actual instruments." An honorable title.

YEAH BABY!

I love it. We have a few "geezer" pilots at our club who have been
there - done that - and are my role models.

This is all about having fun, after all..

Kirk
66

The moral of that story is make a ballastic recovery chut a standard option.

Mike Schumann

"Brad" wrote in message
...
Remember when the Sparrowhawk first came out. It had a price of under
25K. I am pretty sure that the cost of manufacturing the airframe has
not doubled in price, but the price of the sailplane has.

Sailplanes that go fast and are designed for racing have way more
parts than a glider designed for lower speed and sports flying.

Safety would not be compromised in this design, but at lower wing
loadings, lighter GW and lower speeds the need for elaborate "crash-
worthiness" structure could be reduced. Even then, I recall the ASW-24
won the OSTIV prize for cockpit safety, and yet one spun in from less
than 400ft and the pilot was killed. My friend was killed in his Atlas
in the same manner. I am sure if I did the same in my Apis the result
would be the same.............the moral of the story.....DON'T CRASH.

Brad




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

It's nice to hear that winch launching is possible
at an existing US airport/gliderport. Over here in
Europe the vast majority of training flights at many
clubs are by winch. Learning to fly gliders up to solo
standard is probably the most expensive part of gliding,
so for the circuit bashing stuff winch launches are
ideal. Generally we also mix in some aerotowing for
the exercises that need a bit of altitude, and so that
students learn how to aerotow, which is a considerable
skill in itself.

There also seems to be a view in the States that soaring
away from a winch launch is only possible if you have
a site right next to, or on top of, a ridge, or if
you can get 2500ft+ launches. In fact many winch launching
sites in Europe are in flat areas. You just have to
learn to soar away in thermals from fairly low altitudes.
I fly from a flatland club in the south of England.
Our winch runs vary from 3500 to 4500 feet, depending
on the wind strength and direction, and we normally
get launches in the range 1400 to 2000ft. On days when
there are thermals, our better soaring pilots will
probably get away 8 times out of 10. Even if they fall
down, another winch launch is not going to break the
bank.

Airfields are usually placed on high, well drained
land, so are often good thermal sources in themselves,
especially if there are hard runways. The trick is
to fly just downwind of the airfield looking for thermal
markers, such as other gliders circling higher up,
birds taking off and, in hotter climates, dust devils.
In the absence of any of these markers just try to
cover as much ground as you can before getting down
to circuit height. Even in the circuit you still may
still encounter lift, but only use it if it doesn't
compromise the safety of the flight.

Del Copeland

At 19:42 28 December 2007, Sam Discusflyer wrote:
Our club operates a winch from a public airport. The
FOB manager is very supportive. It takes some planning.
It requires you to discuss with your club and discuss
directly with the FOB manager. Prepare a presentation
(BTW nothing fancy), prepare a written agreement, discuss
safety, operations, and the airports revenue sharing
amount. This is a critical step as most FOB managers
must report the activity to the city/county airport
board. The BGA has emmense experience and offer a lot
of documentation to assist you. USE IT. Back up what
you tell the FOB. Bring in some experienced winch operators
for your first weekend. It works.

I was thinking about the bait switch today and how
that works. I laughed when I thought about a reverse
way to use it. One of our students had been training
on aero tow. Paying about $30/tow. He was only doing
2-3 tows every couple of weeks. You could see he was
on the edge of losing interest. Our winch operations
came along at just the right time. We only charge $10/waunch.
This student took 3 waunches the first day and 9 waunches
the next. He was so hooked he then ran for a club officer
position. He exclaimed '9 flights for the price of
3'. WOW.
So have a new student pay for 3 aero tows for $90,
then introduce them to 9 waunches for the same price.
And guess what, they also get 3 times the practice.

If you want a copy of our presentation and other materials,
drop me a line.


SAM


At 16:42 28 December 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:

'toad' wrote in message
.

com...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think
the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt
that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would
allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with
aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the
US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated
an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the
northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that
has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several
million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive
compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch
and the response was
'bring it on'. It seems almost universal that glider
pilots assume winch
operations would be turned down so they don't actually
ask. Ask in a
reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally
served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations
at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared.
(Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.)
That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which,
to a degree, depends on
public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring
100's of operations per
day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good,
particularly if those
operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots
of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't
hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.

The problem with winch launching in the US is the inherent fear of change in
the average person. Most pilots in the US have never experienced a winch
launch, so they only look at the downsides. The potential launch cost
savings aren't significant enough to interest the guys who already own
private ships and have decent incomes. The same guys don't realize how much
fun winching can be, as they've never tried it.

In order to be a safe and successful with winch launching, you need to make
a 100% commitment. You can't run winches and tows in parallel, if people
are going to get and stay proficient in winch launching. In addition, the
only way winches are economically justifiable is if you totally eliminate
the overhead, operating, and maintenance costs associated with a tow plane.

The other problem in the US, is that most glider operations take place at
public airports. The coexistence of winches with power traffic can lead to
real, as well as imaginary issues. With the cost of farmland going thru the
roof, thanks to ethanol and urban sprawl, the feasibility of buying or
leasing land for a winch only strip reasonably close to major metropolitan
areas, where the pilots live, is quite problematic.

To overcome this hurdle, it's going to take a very imaginative marketing
effort, the most important element of which has to be touring the country
giving winch demos to clubs, so people start looking at how much FUN winch
launches are, instead of focusing on the cost savings.

Mike Schumann

P.S. I'm firmly convinced that the most promising market for winch
launching is with commercial operators, who are heavily focused on selling
rides. Not only would their margins increase dramatically, but so would the
ride experience and the marketability of their product.

"Dan G" wrote in message
...
On Dec 27, 8:18 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:

big snip

I wish it was as easy as you think...

What's interesting to me is that you seem to be looking at the same
prices we are. A PW6U is £45,000 over here; a factory built Skylaunch
is ~£60,000. The former has seen a couple of sales and the latter are
being snapped up all over the place. How can we can afford to buy kit
like this and you guys can't? Most of the clubs I know have bought
this equipment cash.

A club which has bought a Skylaunch recently might have about 100
members paying £300 a year each and about £7 a winch launch, plus
around £25 an hour glider hire. An aerotow, btw, costs about £25 to
2,000'. What are US club membership numbers and costs like?


Dan



--
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