Got burned - Don't go to Lansing Jet Center.

Very well said. MRQB, it's time to stop being a victim and take control of
your situation...

Michael

"Captain Wubba" said
No, I would *not* have also 'cut my losses'. I wouldn't have seen them
as losses to be cut. The goal here isn't to get a piece of paper from
the FAA. the goal is to lbe proficient enough to *deserve* the
privelege of flying an airplane. This is an opportunity...not an
opportunity to sue. You put your situation out here for others to
comment upon, not me. And the response seems fairly uniform...many
pilots here don't think you have a productive attitude. Want to know
why a new Cessna 172 costs $200,000? Many reasons, but one is
insurance, which is very expensive largely due to people who are quick
to sue others whenever they do something stupid or become unhappy
about something.

I hear a strong sense of entitlement in your posts. That is *not* a
good attitude for a pilot to have. One of the most important
attributes of a pilot is the ability to roll with the punches, and
adapt to unfavorable situations with calm and reason. That attitude is
not displayed here. Instead of 'Wow. OK...the plane is gone. How do I
deal with this? A bit annoying, but let's see how I can finish up in a
reasonable amount of time.' I hear 'The plane is gone??? You get that
plane back or I'll sue you! I deserved to finish my training in that
plane! You guys are mistreating me.'

Does that attitude reflect the way you fly? If it dos, I wouldn't get
near an airplane with you. Not as a passenger, not as an instructor.

This is a chance to show your skills at dealing with new and mildly
adverse situations. Use it to learn something new, and stop with the
unproductive blame.

Cheers,

Cap

And? Did they transfer the block time to the new aircraft? Or refund
the balance? If not, *then* you have a beef. If they did, then roll
with the punches...what would have done had some other student
collapsed the nose gear on your plane and sent it to the shop for a
month? Sued the student? Sued the FBO? Sued the airport?

No they did not transfer the block time yet they have not recived airplane
or offer a refund as no refunds are allowed on block time and when the time
is transferred to the new plane the rates will be higher and the hours will
not be what i paid for.

What would have happened if a student damaged the plane? it would not be a
problem as that is a unpredicted accident and things do break it is a
machine plane was down a week as alternator went out was not a problem was
close to 100 hours so they did the 100 hour at the same time.

This they knew they would be getting rid of the plane on xx date but did not
let me know prior to buying block time in advance. If they would told me i
would not have rented from them and went elseware when at the beginning
stages of my training (pre solo).

Then if your skill level is truly PP-ASEL level or better, then this
should only take a few hours familiarization in the new plane. Use it
as a learning opportunity to gete xposed to different kinds of
aircraft and their systems. If you were going to continue to use this
FBO to rent from, you'd need the checkout in this plane anyway, right?
And if you went to a different FBO, they'd expect a checkout in
whatever plane they had.

Yes all is true, but if i was a flight school and you were a full time
student (flying almost everyday weather permitting) renting an airplane
from me for training paid a certain amount and then when you were ready for
your check ride and i sold the airplane and have known when i was getting
rid of the plane prior to you paying a large amount of money knowing that by
doing so i could make a few extra hundred dollars off of you in instruction
& check out would you be upset? you probably would unless you own a money
tree or have no sence of the value of money some of us do work for our
money.



No, I would *not* have also 'cut my losses'. I wouldn't have seen them
as losses to be cut. The goal here isn't to get a piece of paper from
the FAA. the goal is to lbe proficient enough to *deserve* the
privelege of flying an airplane. This is an opportunity...not an
opportunity to sue. You put your situation out here for others to
comment upon, not me. And the response seems fairly uniform...many
pilots here don't think you have a productive attitude. Want to know
why a new Cessna 172 costs $200,000? Many reasons, but one is
insurance, which is very expensive largely due to people who are quick
to sue others whenever they do something stupid or become unhappy
about something.

Business that don't disclose important information like: in November we will
be getting rid of the airplane and it will cost you an extra $XX Per Hour +
XX more instruction do you still want to rent and receive instruction here.
but instead they kept it quiet let me empty almost my entire PP budget in to
block time knowing that they will be able now to get $XX Per Hour + XX more
instruction.

Business that operate like this will not last long and usually end up going
banko or shut down and people lose money

lets see if they actually go through with what they are offering me. so for
every thing they said has not happened.


I hear a strong sense of entitlement in your posts. That is *not* a
good attitude for a pilot to have. One of the most important
attributes of a pilot is the ability to roll with the punches, and
adapt to unfavorable situations with calm and reason. That attitude is
not displayed here. Instead of 'Wow. OK...the plane is gone. How do I
deal with this? A bit annoying, but let's see how I can finish up in a
reasonable amount of time.' I hear 'The plane is gone??? You get that
plane back or I'll sue you! I deserved to finish my training in that
plane! You guys are mistreating me.'

I should be entitled to the hours in a 172 that i paid for! If you pay for
something shouldn't you be entitled to receive it.

Not saying to get the plane back! i know the plane is gone. i am saying just
to watch who you do business with. I already came to the conclusion that it
is going to cost me one way or the other at the greed & disrecpect of
another.


Does that attitude reflect the way you fly? If it dos, I wouldn't get
near an airplane with you. Not as a passenger, not as an instructor.

No, i fly safe checklist gets a lot of attention and i use good judgment


This is a chance to show your skills at dealing with new and mildly
adverse situations. Use it to learn something new, and stop with the
unproductive blame

Cheers,

Cap

"MRQB" wrote in
:

No they did not transfer the block time yet they have not recived
airplane or offer a refund as no refunds are allowed on block time and
when the time is transferred to the new plane the rates will be higher
and the hours will not be what i paid for.


At the very least I would insist they give you the exact amount of hours
you paid for when you purchased the block time. I believe you have a
leg to stand on there. I would also negotiate a discounted cost for the
extra hours required for the checkout on new equipment. Unless these
guys are complete jerks (or they now think you are grin) both of the
above would be reasonable.

I've never taken lessons, or seen a block time agreement (yet!) but it
seems they have contracted with you for a specified amount of hours in a
specified plane, therefore they owe you the hours in an equivalent
plane, or they owe you a refund. Could be worse, I heard that in San
Antonio, when Stinson Air Center went belly up, LOTS of students and
regular renters lost ALOT of money in the form of pre-purchased block
time.... BADDDD... Yeah they were creditors in the bankruptcy... but I
doubt even one of them got a dime.


--
ET


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Well ill find out a final answer from them and what they are going to do
this Monday if they get the airplane if they don't money for time is still
owed if they refuse then ill go further but the way it seems is they keep
telling me it will be Monday, it will be Tuesday, it will be here friday, We
are going to pick it up this week, on the day they think they are going to
get it i call them or stop in and they give some excuse.


"Saryon" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:52:05 -0800, "MRQB" wrote:


And? Did they transfer the block time to the new aircraft? Or refund
the balance? If not, *then* you have a beef. If they did, then roll
with the punches...what would have done had some other student
collapsed the nose gear on your plane and sent it to the shop for a
month? Sued the student? Sued the FBO? Sued the airport?

No they did not transfer the block time yet they have not recived
airplane
or offer a refund as no refunds are allowed on block time and when the
time
is transferred to the new plane the rates will be higher and the hours
will
not be what i paid for.

Let's be accurate here.

They are not offering to refund the free, no cost to you, bonus hours
that they credited your account for pre-payment, which they appear (if
my memory is correct from previous discussions of this) to have said
are non-refundable in their documentation, right? It is not a case of
money that you gave them is now owed, this was a freebie they were
going to kick in.

I still have yet to hear from anyone else here who deals in block time
saying that their block time is tagged to a specific aircraft. Anyone
other than me and MRQB here deal with FBO's that have block time? I
know that mine is just a deposit account and I use it for whatever
aircraft I fly, at whatever the current going rate for that aircraft
is. I can just as easily use that account to buy charts, kneeboards,
plotters, whatever. It's definately not something restricted to one
specific N number, which if someone crashed or seriously damaged would
obviously not available any more. Whatever lawyer wrote the contracts
would have been exceedingly remis if they actually constructed a
contract to tie the block time to a specific airframe.

I've also not seen any block time arrangement which states an hourly
rate. What if you wanted to rent some other aircraft on their line,
you have to make an additional purchase of hours just apply it to that
aircraft even though you have a credit ballance in your account? That
makes no sense either.

I'm glad to hear that you were partially refunded.

It would be nice if there were some kind of consumer
protection for pilots, some kind of recourse for
unethical business practices. Many many students have been
burned by flight schools that went belly-up after 9/11.
Students should beware of any flight school that asks
for thousands of dollars up front prior to commencing
flight training.

Always get an estimate before having a mechanic work
on your airplane. Replacing a seat rail on a cessna
172 is a 2.5 hour job, not a 5 hour job!
Always get an estimate before having a pre-purchase
inspection.

Flight schools are concerned with their bottom line,
not with the interests of the student pilot.
If a student damages an aircraft, he might not even
be protected by the insurance policy of the school.
For example, it is possible to damage an engine when
trying to start it on a freezing winter morning.
He could be sued under subrogation. The cost of repairs
could be outrageous, and the price gouging issue could
definitely come up. Some flight schools have even
threatened to turn in pilots to the FAA as "dangerous"
because they didn't pay their monthly dues on time.

Sometimes pilots find themselves in situations such as
forced off-airport landings in which unethical people
might try to take advantage of the situation.
Maybe the farmer is going to sue you for landing on his
corn field. Maybe you have a flat tire, dead battery,
low fuel, low oil, or are in need of de-icing.
One time I used the self-serve fuel pump, and it put
a $250 block on my credit card -- just to fill a Cessna.
I called the manager, and they took off the hold.

There needs to be a AAA of the sky that you can call
to get you out these sticky situations and a friendly
guy in a tow truck will come and help!!

Ted

Jon Kraus wrote:

Please remove the "Don't go to the Lansing Jet Center" from your memory
banks. THe General manager is going to refund me $275.00.
Thanks Jay for the advise....

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

First, let me say that I have always had positive
experiences with the executive jet centers.

From what I'm reading in some of these posts, it
seems that others have had different experiences.
If what they say is true, then there are some bad
apples, some exceptions to the rule. These few
badly managed "executive jet centers" cannot have their
cake and eat it too. If they want to open their doors
to the Bonanza pilot or the Cessna pilot, they need
to be ethical and fair. Otherwise they should strictly
do business with the bizjets.

Unfortunately, bullying occurs frequently in general aviation.
It is not acceptable. I will not allow myself to be bullied
by any large corporation, whether it is in general aviation,
Microsoft, AT&T, ...
There are choices out there. Take your business to people who
treat you right.

I have always had positive experiences with Million Air.
They gave me a box of pretzels on my first solo cross country
to Reading, Pennsylvania.

At Monterey Airport, the Monterey Jet Center made us reservations
at Tarpy's Roadhouse and even let us drive their Volkswagon Bug
over there for dinner. And we were in a little Cessna 172 from
San Carlos -- not very many gallons. Extremely nice people.

Signature in Palm Springs is very good to us.
Mercury Air Center in Santa Barbara and Bakersfield
is very good to us.

Take your business to Jonesy's Famous Steak House at Napa.
They have excellent hamburgers. Great service.

There are many nice people in Sacramento. At Sacramento
Executive, I like Aviator's Restaurant. I wonder if they
are still in business.

At Columbia, I like the City Hotel restaurant.
I like the Skyroom restaurant at Lampson airport.

Ted

John Roncallo wrote:


I don't find this to be true at all. I have notice that there are many
facilities that cater to larger jet aircraft and have no time for the
single piston engine aircraft. This is largely due to the prime
realestate these facilities operate on and the difficulties in setting
policy that works for both large and small aircraft. The small aircraft
take up almost as much space as a G-V. Yet to a C-152 pilot a $50.00
ramp fee is very discouraging while a G-V it's a very small percentage
of the total cost of the flight. Large Jet centers also offer things
that are really not required for the single engine pilot, like the guy
that comes out with the mini van to pick everyone and there bags up and
bring them into the terminal.

The problem gets even more magnified when one consideres that the range
of single engine aircraft is quite diverse. On one hand you get the
business man in the 1/2 million dollar Bonanza, who expects to get
picked up and has no problem with a $50.00 ramp fee and on the other
extreem you get the student pilot flying a 30 year old C-150 that just
wants gas and a quick turn arround. The C-152 will not even take the 25
gallons minimum fuel often required to wave a ramp fee at some places.

It's very hard for an FBO manager to say lets roll the the guy in the
Bonanza and let the student off, especially if they are both at the
counter at the same time.

John Roncallo

I work in the Capital City Airport terminal just east of L.J.C.,I am going
to print your message and take it to them in the morning and let them know
how they aren't getting off on a very good note with the public for their
apparent overcharging practice.
Also I understand that Superior Aviation just east of the terminal was also
bought out by the same company that owns Lansing Jet Center, if that is true
then they pretty much got Lansing tied up.
By they way I use to live in Indianapolis way back in the early 60's, it was
really nice then, that's before I met my wife who grew up there.
Charley

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

Ok glad you talked to them, I won't take them a copy of the message.

"charley" wrote in message
news:kT1Db.347917$Dw6.1141282@attbi_s02...
I work in the Capital City Airport terminal just east of L.J.C.,I am going
to print your message and take it to them in the morning and let them know
how they aren't getting off on a very good note with the public for their
apparent overcharging practice.
Also I understand that Superior Aviation just east of the terminal was
also
bought out by the same company that owns Lansing Jet Center, if that is
true
then they pretty much got Lansing tied up.
By they way I use to live in Indianapolis way back in the early 60's, it
was
really nice then, that's before I met my wife who grew up there.
Charley

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA