Using thermals to climb?

Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

In article , Kees Mies
wrote:

Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?

Absolutely not.

If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

I don't go looking for them, but when I feel them, I use them. I start
a tight circle until I feel it give out.

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

Soaring pilots will tell you to look for plowed fields, clouds,
anyplace the ground will be warmer than its surroundings.

Kees,

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?


It's a great idea to have that in your bag of tricks. OTOH, consider
first that on a day with 300-feet-thermals, you might also end up in a
downdraft that you can't outclimb, so your safest option might be to
stay on the ground. Also, I take it you are leaning properly AT FULL
POWER in those high density altitude situations to get the most out of
your engine?

That said, just wait until you feel (and possibly see on the VSI) a
strong updraft, then start tight turns, preferably to the side were the
updraft lifted one of your wings (that's were it will be stronger). The
goal here is to circle the center of the updraft. Anything below 25 to
30 degrees bank will probably result in circles that are too wide. You
should be at Vy, but consider stall speed increases with bank angle.

Stay safe!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never thermalled
in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can get
enough out of one in a 150.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never
thermalled
in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can
get
enough out of one in a 150.

I don't think he's talking about shutting the engine off. With the engine
running, a C150 has a MUCH better glide ratio than that of a glider. Flying
in a rising thermal will only improve things.

Pete

I do this in my Mooney when crossing the Sierra Nevadas. I can often
get 2,000 fpm above 10,000 MSL. I'm not too scientific about it. I
just fly until the plane starts to really climb, then I circle around
that area. Remember, all up drafts have a sibling downdraft somewhere.
Get some extra altitude because there is usually some place where you
can't hold altitude. In the Mooney I can fly through these areas
pretty fast. I also carry O2 when Summer flying the Sierras. Expect
some bumps.

-Robert


(Kees Mies) wrote in message . com...
Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
I do this in my Mooney when crossing the Sierra Nevada. I can often
get 2,000 fpm above 10,000 MSL. I'm not too scientific about it. I
just fly until the plane starts to really climb, then I circle around
that area. Remember, all up drafts have a sibling downdraft somewhere.
Get some extra altitude because there is usually some place where you
can't hold altitude. In the Mooney I can fly through these areas
pretty fast. I also carry O2 when Summer flying the Sierras. Expect
some bumps.

-Robert

I know a pilot who would fly his C-152II (solo and light) over to Reno on a
fairly regular basis. He often talked of using some of the summer thermals
that would bubble up under the 'cloud streets' that would form on his way
through Sacramento. He eventually gave up the pursuit because in the
summers he would spend great amounts of time in a slow shallow circular
climb (not in a thermal) trying to gain enough altitude to fly back over the
Sierras along I-80. I remember raising more than an eyebrow when he first
mentioned this, but he pointed out that he always traveled light (just him
and a light bag) and that in terms of power to size when compared to a C-172
that he (in his C152II) had 'more' horsepower relative to the size of the
aircraft he flew.

His story made the hairs on my neck, stand on end (I've only been over to
Truckee airport in a C172 with one other passenger (a CFI that I was doing a
high altitude checkout with) and the 'climb performance' was certainly
different than what I had been used to in the comparative 'flatlands' that I
normally flew).

I do want to make it a point to take one of those high-altitude courses in
Colorado for a mini-vacation some time. I'd really like to know more than I
do (though I've read Sparky's book, Mountain Flying and a host of others on
the same subject),,, I guess I want more practical experience (with an
instructor, nearby) at the altitudes of some of those airports in Colorado.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

(Kees Mies) wrote
My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?

Not at all. Do it all the time in similar circumstances.

If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Based on your registration, I assume you are German. Suggest you read
Cross Country Soaring (Streckensegelflug, I think - does that
translate correctly?) by Reichmann. It's probably overkill, but it's
a wonderfully comprehensive book that goes into a lot of depth about
soaring meteorology.

Once you have some idea of where and when you can expect lift, just
practice. A few flighs in a glider also wouldn't hurt.

Michael

I used to soar quite a bit. You can definitely get some help from thermals
if you pay attention to the VSI and your sense of acceleration (i.e. your
butt). In fact, learning to correlate the VSI with the 'seat of your pants'
is key. The VSI is showing you what happened seconds ago. You feel the
acceleration long before. Reacting to the acceleration and then calibrating
what you feel with the VSI is how it's done.

I wouldn't advocate trying to circle much. It can be done but unless you
are trying to clear some mountains, I wouldn't bother trading forward
progress for height. Many thermals in most places are going to be too small
to do it effectively.

In a long cross country climb, you can do several things:
1) When encountering lift, pull up and slow down to the slowest speed you
feel comfortable at or above Vy (engine cooling and visibility may be 2
limiting factors). Conversely, when encountering sink, let the plane speed
up and get thru it as fast as possible.
2) When encountering lift, note which wing rises. Immediately put that wing
down a few degrees and turn slightly in that direction. It is most likely
where stronger lift may be.

The ground is of little use at normal cruise/climb altitudes but pay
attention to the clouds. Puffy, fresh growing cumulus clouds have thermals
under them. Often, slight route changes based on the clouds will put you in
more lift than sink. If the clouds are lined up, it's a cloud street and if
it's aligned with your direction of flight, the gods are smiling at you. If
you hit it right, you'll be at cloud base before you know it.

In cruise, instead of maintaining altitude exactly, allowing the lift to
lift you while slowing a bit, and diving thru the sink is more efficient.

The interesting part is that if you fly accurate altitudes and correct your
direction with a little sloppiness, you will tend to fly in the worst air in
the most inefficient manner. That is, you'll tend to find and fly in
sinking air. What you want to do is turn towards the areas that are pushing
you away and pull up when a thermal kicks you up and push forward when you
are sinking.

Reichmann's book is one of the definitive works but way too much for what
we're talking about here. A soaring pilot with someone with some glider
x-country experience would be more instructive.


"Kees Mies" wrote in message
om...
Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

Go for it. During my initial training in Phoenix, my instructor and I
did some thermaling in a Cessna 172. We obtained a +500 fpm rate of
climb with the engine at full idle while circling in a thermal.

Dean

(Kees Mies) wrote in message . com...
Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.