Using thermals to climb?

www.coloradopilots.org

Two Colorado Mountain flying courses this summer, both at APA (just
SE of Denver in the 'burbs). That's the full-day ground class. The
practical is arranged with an instructor for another time.

Thanks!!!! I'm checking it out. Did have one question though you said that
there's a 'practical' exam for mountain flying?

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Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

Thomas Borchert wrote
It's a great idea to have that in your bag of tricks. OTOH, consider
first that on a day with 300-feet-thermals, you might also end up in a
downdraft that you can't outclimb, so your safest option might be to
stay on the ground.

That's ALWAYS the safest option.

You know, some of us fly entirely without engines - and we fly cross
country. We're literally counting on finding the lift and avoiding
the sink to avoid landing in a field or worse - because we can't climb
at all, even in still or slightly rising air. By comparison, flying
something that can actually climb 300 fpm seems like a huge luxury,
and dramatically safer.

You
should be at Vy, but consider stall speed increases with bank angle.

Actually, Vy is probably too fast. In general, you need to fly just a
few knots over stall and in a fairly tight bank to stay in most
thermals. Since the air is turbulent, an incipient stall is not a
matter of if but when. Get comfortable with it. When you feel the
bit of the stall, release back pressure slightly until you feel the
plane flying again.

Michael

It isn't the glide ratio that one is concerned with in thermals - rather the
minimum sink rate and the speed for minimum sink.

Usually thermals are fairly localized and glider pilots work a lot to stay
in them. Turns are routinely done by banking between 30 and 60 degrees at
slow relatively slow speeds.

To do this right you need to find your minimum sink speed. Take some glider
lessons and you may get good enough to make it worth worrying about, but I
doubt you can make it work well in a power plane.

If on the other hand you can find some nice ridge lift or wave, then you can
save some gas.

The varios on gliders are generally quite sensitive and finding a thermal in
a power plane is not going to be trivial. Especially if you want to go
someplace.

My advice is to forget about it, but if you are curious, take up soaring -
it is a lot of fun and will improve your piloting skills and knowledge.


"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never
thermalled
in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can
get
enough out of one in a 150.

Jose

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(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Oops... just got it,,, no need to explain.... You were simply referring to
ACTUAL flying portion ('practical', so-to-speak, is set-up separately).

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Cecil Chapman" wrote in message
news
Thanks!!!! I'm checking it out. Did have one question though you said
that
there's a 'practical' exam for mountain flying?

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

It probably isn't worth it if you are going cross country. It is very
much worth it if you are staying local and have some reason to
get to altitude.

On climb out cross country, speed up when you are not in lift,
slow down in lift. Go where the bumpy air is (under the clouds).
The reason to speed up when in the sink is to get through it
as soon as possible. The opposite when in lift. Full throttle all
of the time.

At cruise, don't drive down the non-cloud streets. Drive down
the cloud streets. The blank area is where the sink is.

Power plane drivers often don't like bumpy rides, so prefer to
fly in the sink and then complain about their draggy plane or
sour engine. In power planes, it is considered bad form to
deviate from your altitude. This is opposite of what is needed
to get there the fastest on the least gas. When in sink, you
want to lose more altitude (go faster), then gain it all back
(go slower, pull higher) when you hit lift. The instructors
and check pilots would take a very dim view of sailplane
techniques. Efficiency loses on this one.

As far as recognizing thermals, you really should get some
glider pilot help. It can be done, although not as well as in
a glider with accurate instrumentation. Power plane instrumentation
sucks. The lead/lag in the rate of climb is really bad. The nudge in
the seat combined with an anticipation of rate of climb indication
is your instrumentation system in the power plane. Don't even
bother to circle if you are uncomfortable with banks in excess of
45 degrees within a knot or two of stall buffet. 60 degrees is common.
This is really steep. Most pilots overestimate how steeply they
are banking.


In article ,
(Kees Mies) wrote:
Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

I don't know where you live (my guess is Germany) but the technique you
describe works fine in the Southwest desert of the United States. I used
to be able to get 500 fpm up in a 172 from the thermals around my old home
patch in the Mojave desert.

Dave Reinhart


Kees Mies wrote:

Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

I use thermals to climb all the time.. that or ridge lift.. but then again
I'm a glider pilot and glider tow pilot. When towing,.. I use the thermals
to help the climb.. with a standard VSI they are easy to locate.. not only
seat of the pants lifting sensation.. but also an increase in the VSI from
500fpm to 1000fpm or better.. depending on thermal strength..

With a good glider pilot behind me, we'll turn in the thermal at up to 45
degrees of bank to help the climb.. and if the thermal is that good the
glider pilot will release and I'll head back down for another glider.

With a student or novice pilot.. I'll go straight through the thermal, then
mild circle out away from the thermal and then back through it wings level..
marking the thermal for the glider pilot.. normally after about the 3rd pass
through a thermal and at least 2000ft AGL. The glider pilot will get off to
test his mettle with mother nature.

BT

"Kees Mies" wrote in message
om...
Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

I should add.. that correct.. where there is lift.. there has to be an equal
amount of sink somewhere... I've also been towing through 400fpm sink...
neither I nor the glider could climb.. we were actually loosing altitude..
if I'd drop the glider, full power would have barely maintained altitude.
And no.. not rotor.. not wave.. but a down draft.. or sink.. near a thermal
we had just gone through at 1200fpm up.. was working to get back to that
thermal.. and the shear between the up and down was extreme..

As soon as we were firmly established in the lift again.. the glider
released.. and I went back to the sink to help my descent back to the
field.. did not see the glider again for about 3 hours.. he was up and
gone..

BT

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:4Jkhc.17907$432.9533@fed1read01...
I use thermals to climb all the time.. that or ridge lift.. but then again
I'm a glider pilot and glider tow pilot. When towing,.. I use the thermals
to help the climb.. with a standard VSI they are easy to locate.. not only
seat of the pants lifting sensation.. but also an increase in the VSI from
500fpm to 1000fpm or better.. depending on thermal strength..

With a good glider pilot behind me, we'll turn in the thermal at up to 45
degrees of bank to help the climb.. and if the thermal is that good the
glider pilot will release and I'll head back down for another glider.

With a student or novice pilot.. I'll go straight through the thermal,
then
mild circle out away from the thermal and then back through it wings
level..
marking the thermal for the glider pilot.. normally after about the 3rd
pass
through a thermal and at least 2000ft AGL. The glider pilot will get off
to
test his mettle with mother nature.

BT

"Kees Mies" wrote in message
om...
Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

Some thermals go up at 2000 feet per minute. Just add that to you climb
while you're in it.

I got a better than 2000 fpm climb a couple weeks ago on take off. Didn't
turn in it, but it lasted for a good 15 or 20 seconds.

Just be careful you're not climbing in a horizontal gust. These can be
deceiving and if you slow down to climb in it, you could find yourself out
of airspeed when the gust ends.

mike regish

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never
thermalled
in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can
get
enough out of one in a 150.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)