Navy or Air Farce?

On 05 Mar 2004 14:25:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

roncachamp- Naval aviation exists for those that can't qualify for the Air
Force. BRBR

righto-we all had assigned seats everytime the USAF exchange officer came
aboard the boat...better show than either the USMC pilot or the movie...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Everyone has their place. I respect the skill it takes to get on and
off the boat. I had a chance to ride with the VF-11 Rippers off of
Forrestal in the Med. It was impressive. Did the whole tour--couple of
flights, hang around the ready room, eat in the chow hall, bang my
head on the overhead, trip over the passageways, get lost in the maze,
take a dry shower, visit pri-fly, stand between the cats in the box,
contemplate the net below the LSO perch, etc.

Now, OTOH, when I was there, we tapped an KA-6 after T/O. The
nose-gunner driving me around bragged later about his tanking
ability--we took 1500 pounds to ease the cycle. I mentioned that the
previous week I'd returned to Spain from Incirlik and we took 16,500
pounds in one hook-up.

We did some 1-v-1 at the end of our station period. I was amazed at
the ability to low-speed fight the hard-wing F-4. I mentioned to the
guys during debrief, that if they ever saw me in my green/brown F-4
coming to fight their grey ones, it would be at 420 kts minimum and
probably a lot faster. There wouldn't be no knife-fighting and
scissoring. And, if I caught them on CAP like I'd just
watched--loitering at 250-275 kts in a holding orbit, they'd be dead
before they knew it.

In my squadron back on land, we had a huge grease pencil board on
which we logged our six-month requirements. Refuelings, low-levels
(day/night), nuc deliveries (vis/radar), conventional deliveries
(10,20,30, rx, strafe), intercepts (day/night), approaches, etc. The
Rippers had a small board. It logged landings--that's all, nothing
better than a green-three. Everything else (i.e. mission) seemed to be
secondary to coming aboard.

Just an AF perspective.

BTW, I did get to taste a bit of warm scotch in a paper cup while
hunched in a cramped C-position on the edge of a lower bunk with six
guys in a 8x5 foot stateroom without a window, beneath a cat and next
to an ammo hoist. Nice life!


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed,

Now, OTOH, when I was there, we tapped an KA-6 after T/O. The nose-gunner
driving me around bragged later about his tanking ability--we took 1500
pounds to ease the cycle.

Being a fighter guy, he would have taken more had Tanker Control let him.
Having been - at times - the right-seat "gas passer" in the mighty K, I
heard ALL airborne whines and snivels of fighter guys begging for more. I
guess it's like being a whore or a traffic cop - in that position you hear
'em all. My stock answer (given when I was too bored or lazy to think of
anything else) was the equivalent of "tell it to the judge" (Tanker
Control).

Everything else (i.e. mission) seemed to be secondary to coming aboard.

I can't speak for the FITRON Ready Rooms, but in Attack there was always
CEP, Bulls-Eye patches and Top Stick / Top Scope competitions. BTW, if you
can't get aboard, then you can't prosecute the mission. If you can get
aboard, you probably have the skills to do most anything.

BTW, I did get to taste a bit of warm scotch in a paper cup while hunched
in a cramped C-position on the edge of a lower bunk with six guys in a 8x5
foot stateroom without a window, beneath a cat and next to an ammo hoist.
Nice life!

Hey, they could've sent you to one of the JO bunkrooms. Imagine a
fraternity house shoehorned into a phone booth and you'll get the idea. (I
understand that - in today's female JO bunkrooms - it's even more cramped.
"More stuff" is the reason I've heard. Women came aboard ship long after my
time.)

--
Mike Kanze

"And why is radicalism so strong in California? Because the State is run by
a dreadful combination of crooked politicians and grasping Babbitts."

- H. L. Mencken (1924)


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
[rest snipped]

I can't speak for the FITRON Ready Rooms, but in Attack there was always
CEP, Bulls-Eye patches and Top Stick / Top Scope competitions. BTW, if
you
can't get aboard, then you can't prosecute the mission. If you can get
aboard, you probably have the skills to do most anything.

It's been my experience that with rare exceptions, most aviators have strong
suites and weaknesses. I've known many guys who were consistent top ten yet
a grape in ACM or a dullard in air-to-mud. Vice versa as well.

Your observation that the on and off the boat skill is necessary to mission
completion is spot on, but I've always thought it overemphasized. If an
aviator has achieved basic competence in carrier landings, there's no real
effort made to improve his remaining skills. (Put a string of no-grades on
the board and you'll get personal attention from CO, LSO, CAG LSO ... not
unreasonable ... but be a perennial loser elsewhere and you'll get the rep,
but rarely remedial training).

R / John

Ed,

A further thought concerning the emphasis placed upon the Greenie Board...

Since the boat is a pretty tight place from which to operate aircraft,
flight ops must be done efficiently and safely. Part of this need
translates into maximizing the boarding rate. This is done in at least two
ways:

* Minimizing the interval between successive approaches. (During my 1973
cruise aboard CORAL MARU, we strived for a 15 second trap-to-trap interval.)

* Maximizing the number of first-time arrestments.

An air wing with a highly-efficient boarding rate enables the ship to stay
within the Air Plan ("on-time" launch / land cycles more likely, greater
margin within which to deal with inevitable problems, etc.) and maximize the
number of sorties available.

Crews that predictably contribute to high boarding rates are valued
accordingly.

Also, the boat is the only place where crews can really hone this particular
skill. FCLPs are not - by themselves - adequate. Besides, time ashore is
better spent on honing warfighting skills so that - when you do finally
deploy - you do so ready to fight.

--
Mike Kanze

"The Project Uncertainty Principle says that if you understand a project,
you won't know its cost, and vice versa."

- Dilbert, August 6 2003


"Mike Kanze" wrote in message
...
Ed,

Now, OTOH, when I was there, we tapped an KA-6 after T/O. The nose-gunner
driving me around bragged later about his tanking ability--we took 1500
pounds to ease the cycle.

Being a fighter guy, he would have taken more had Tanker Control let him.
Having been - at times - the right-seat "gas passer" in the mighty K, I
heard ALL airborne whines and snivels of fighter guys begging for more. I
guess it's like being a whore or a traffic cop - in that position you hear
'em all. My stock answer (given when I was too bored or lazy to think of
anything else) was the equivalent of "tell it to the judge" (Tanker
Control).

Everything else (i.e. mission) seemed to be secondary to coming aboard.

I can't speak for the FITRON Ready Rooms, but in Attack there was always
CEP, Bulls-Eye patches and Top Stick / Top Scope competitions. BTW, if
you
can't get aboard, then you can't prosecute the mission. If you can get
aboard, you probably have the skills to do most anything.

BTW, I did get to taste a bit of warm scotch in a paper cup while hunched
in a cramped C-position on the edge of a lower bunk with six guys in a 8x5
foot stateroom without a window, beneath a cat and next to an ammo hoist.
Nice life!

Hey, they could've sent you to one of the JO bunkrooms. Imagine a
fraternity house shoehorned into a phone booth and you'll get the idea.
(I
understand that - in today's female JO bunkrooms - it's even more cramped.
"More stuff" is the reason I've heard. Women came aboard ship long after
my
time.)

--
Mike Kanze

"And why is radicalism so strong in California? Because the State is run
by
a dreadful combination of crooked politicians and grasping Babbitts."

- H. L. Mencken (1924)


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
[rest snipped]

Had an exchange tour with the USAF..IP in 61st TFS and 13th TFTS..late 70's.
Flew F-4D after the US Gov't gave all the MacDill -E models to Egypt.

I was always impressed by the equipment, the JOs and my COs. Papy Fero and Mike
Ryan(yep, the same).

I became a great bomber, even in the trunk with radar nuke deliverys but the
USAF F-4 boys couldn't fight the A/C to 'save their life'. I had my way with
all of them including the Fighter Weapos School guys.

BUT my biggest gripe was when the Wing Commander didn't like it when I didn't
have my scarf on, or when I rolled up my sleeves too high or when I had my
brown boots on. There were more O-6s in the wing administration than on an
entire battle group. I loved the tour, great guys and great flying but you can
have the BS way to administer the aviators.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 06 Mar 2004 14:54:49 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

Had an exchange tour with the USAF..IP in 61st TFS and 13th TFTS..late 70's.
Flew F-4D after the US Gov't gave all the MacDill -E models to Egypt.

Frustrating to say the least. I came out of SEA in F-4Es and went to
Torrejon Spain, only to watch the last of the E-models take off on a
realignment throughout USAFE which gave us the C-models. Flew Cs for
four years.

I was always impressed by the equipment, the JOs and my COs. Papy Fero and Mike
Ryan(yep, the same).

The AF does keep the birds clean and the list of delayed discrepancies
short. That doesn't happen on the boat as much because of supply
issues (at least from this long distance view).

I became a great bomber, even in the trunk with radar nuke deliverys but the
USAF F-4 boys couldn't fight the A/C to 'save their life'. I had my way with
all of them including the Fighter Weapos School guys.

I'll let you brag, but would have to put a great big "that depends" on
the claim. In those days before ACMI, there was a lot of loudest guy
wins the debrief. I ran a lot of exercises in USAFE when I was in the
Hq. Many of them played AF vs USN and the opportunity to pit Eagles
against Tomcats was sought by all. The debrief usually was the Toms
claiming kills prior to the merge because of Phoenix and the Eagles
claiming WVR morts when turning/burning. (Of course those were
under-powered A-model Toms.)

Navy led the way (see I admit it!) on developing loose deuce/fluid
attack tactics and instituting lots of dissimilar. It took the AF a
long time to catch up.

BUT my biggest gripe was when the Wing Commander didn't like it when I didn't
have my scarf on, or when I rolled up my sleeves too high or when I had my
brown boots on. There were more O-6s in the wing administration than on an
entire battle group. I loved the tour, great guys and great flying but you can
have the BS way to administer the aviators.

I'll have to agree. But, I'll also point out that at sea you don't
quite have the image problem that you do with interacting with lots of
non-combatant folks at a ground base. I'll also mention a couple of
times I x-country visited a USN base and had to change out of flying
clothes before I could leave base ops to get to quarters.

It's a function of leadership and different folks have different
priorities. I always enjoyed working for a warrior more than a
careerist. Shined boots are nice, but bombs on target are more
important.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Pechs
blurted out:

Had an exchange tour with the USAF..IP in 61st TFS and 13th TFTS..late 70's.
Flew F-4D after the US Gov't gave all the MacDill -E models to Egypt.

BUT my biggest gripe was when the Wing Commander didn't like it when I didn't
have my scarf on, or when I rolled up my sleeves too high or when I had my
brown boots on.

In 1987 stationed at Kunsan, a new arrival was an AF type whose
previous tour was an exchange with VF-2 (I think) aboard the
Ranger...Bob "Motown" Records.

When Motown showed up TDY at MacDill for F-16 RTU (that'd be the RAG
for my naval brethren) from his exchange tour, he walked into the
squadron in the finest of naval traditions...wearing a polo shirt
under his bag, "Motown" name tag, a ratty hat stuffed in a pocket
somewhere, boots that had been run through the garbage disposal,
sleeves up above his elbows, collar turned up...your basic, one each,
manly man doing manly things in a manly manner.

The Wing King just happened to be flying with that squadron that day.
Wing King noticed Motown, and greeted him and asked if he was a Navy
exchange pilot.

"Yes sir."

Wing King asked how long Motown had been in the Navy.

"Oh I'm not in the Navy, I'm an AF pilot on an exchange tour WITH the
Navy."

[pause for effect...] At this point the WK turned to the Sqdn CO and
just nodded...the Sqdn CO nodded. Motown got "squared away" ASAP.

Motown enjoyed his cruise on the Ranger. In fact at one point one guy
borrowed Motown's "100 Traps on the Ranger" patch and had 24 made up
that said, "I've Heard 100 Ranger Stories" For some strange reason
Motown stopped talking about the boat when we started wearing our
patches.

Motown also loved to call the squadron commander "skipper." The chorus
in response was usually, "Gilligan!" or "What is it little buddy?"

Juvat

(Pechs1) wrote in message ...

righto-we all had assigned seats everytime the USAF exchange officer came
aboard the boat...better show than either the USMC pilot or the movie...


Yup. If you want to put an airplane on a boat, you best call the
Navy. If you want to put ordnance on a target, you best call the Air
Force.

Yup. If you want to put an airplane on a boat, you best call the
Navy. If you want to put ordnance on a target, you best call the Air
Force. BRBR

C'mon, you can do better than that. I liked the one 'the Navy makes moovies,
the airfarce makes history.'

Besides, I really like the ironed flight suits and those keen scarves..
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

(Pechs1) wrote in message ...

C'mon, you can do better than that.


No need to.