ASH 26E VS DG 808C

Just to add to the decision, can I ask which ship has the most upright seating position? I seem to re-visit my lunch the more reclined I am, so this consideration is important to me. The 26E/808C/Antares are my dreams too..............


bagmaker

One question from someone who will eventually have a self launcher
The Antares quote range in vertical metres it can climb,
The ASH26 and DG808C have extra tanks that can increase range,
What would be the climb height expected from say a normal tank of 15
litres
for the ASH or DG .
gary
Andor Holtsmark wrote:
At 04:30 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
So which one would you choose today? The Antares is
much more
expensive so that limits the market.

I'd like to object to this comment.
Before you decide on an aircraft (or make comments
about their pricing), please get up to date offers
for all brands you would concider, make sure that the
offers include ALL the itimes you will need to operate
the aircraft, then look at the BOTTOM line.
The bottom line Antares pricing is competitive with
similar infernal combustion based products.

It must also be said that ALL sailplane manufacturers
offer an amazing amount of product for the money they
charge. There is a lot of idealism in the business.


Anyway, if you are seriously interrested in an antares,
then you are also more than welcome to make an appointment
for a visit to Lange Flugzeugbau, including a test
flight. Then you will know where the money goes. Contact
information can be found at www.Lange-Flugzeugbau.com

Cheers, Andor

(yep, I work there)

wrote:
One question from someone who will eventually have a self launcher
The Antares quote range in vertical metres it can climb,
The ASH26 and DG808C have extra tanks that can increase range,
What would be the climb height expected from say a normal tank of 15
litres
for the ASH or DG .
gary
Andor Holtsmark wrote:
At 04:30 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
So which one would you choose today? The Antares is
much more
expensive so that limits the market.

I'd like to object to this comment.
Before you decide on an aircraft (or make comments
about their pricing), please get up to date offers
for all brands you would concider, make sure that the
offers include ALL the itimes you will need to operate
the aircraft, then look at the BOTTOM line.
The bottom line Antares pricing is competitive with
similar infernal combustion based products.

It must also be said that ALL sailplane manufacturers
offer an amazing amount of product for the money they
charge. There is a lot of idealism in the business.

Anyway, if you are seriously interrested in an antares,
then you are also more than welcome to make an appointment
for a visit to Lange Flugzeugbau, including a test
flight. Then you will know where the money goes. Contact
information can be found at www.Lange-Flugzeugbau.com

Cheers, Andor

(yep, I work there)

Hi Gary - Unfortunately its a bit of apples and oranges.

The Antares has no noticeable density-altitude penalty,
so it can climb unaffected until around 16k where the
prop speed-limits and the climb-rate slows (and you
can't climb under power this high from sea-level). But,
it has less range than a gas powered machine.

A gas-powered machine may prove "interesting" at
Ely or Telluride (without turbocharger), but has more
range, especially with long-range tanks. Just don't
expect to climb over some of the peaks out west
when its hot. Its OK if you don't mind tooling
around Ely after launch not real high until you find
a thermal; certainly this is doable and plenty
including me have done so.

You have to pick which parameter is more important
for your flying (and don't forget to include stress level
as an independent and important parameter)...

Hope this helps !
Best Regards, Dave

PS: To emphasize Andor's point regarding cost, the
all-up delivered and equipped cost of an Antares 20E
is *not* substantially more than the other machines
discussed here, make sure to compare the real total
cost to your driveway...

On Oct 28, 7:21 pm, wrote:
A gas-powered machine may prove "interesting" at
Ely or Telluride (without turbocharger), but has more
range, especially with long-range tanks. Just don't
expect to climb over some of the peaks out west
when its hot. Its OK if you don't mind tooling
around Ely after launch not real high until you find
a thermal; certainly this is doable and plenty
including me have done so.

I operate my ASH-26E from an airport S of Denver that is at 7,000' MSL.
During the summer, density altitude is 10K or so at the time I launch.
The climb profile compared to a tow bekind a 250 HP Pawnee is quite
similar. I'm climbing at about 50 knots and behind the Pawnee it would
be 70 knots. So I'm actually higher about 1500' down the runway, but
about the same at the end of the runway (about 200' AGL on this 3800'
long runway) and typically 800' or so passsing abeam the departure
point on downwind. Actual climb rate is about 300 fpm. Check my OLC
flight logs for some comparisons as I sometimes take a tow in order to
have a full fuel load for the end of the day.

During the winter, I've still had a positive rate of climb at 16,500
while exploring for wave. In summer, I've made a few self retrieves
from the other side of 13-14K' ridges in the Colorado Rockies. With
the higher density altitude, I stop climbing at about 15K. I only have
the fuselage tank (16 litres), so endurance is about 90 minutes.

So the bottom line is that at high altitudes, either physically, or due
to density, one must use whatever thermals there are, and try to avoid
areas of sink. But so far, in the 5 years I've been flying the ship
there has never been a situation where I wished for more power.

-Tom
ASH-26E 5Z
Black Forest Soaring Society - for OLC logs

At 07:24 23 October 2006, Bumper wrote:

wrote in message
roups.com...
So we have heard form two ASH 26 owners. Any DG 800-808
owners want to
opine? I have heard the build quality is better on
the ASH than the
DG, how so?

This is best answered by really looking closely at
these gliders. And if
you're considering buying one, then it may be best
to take the time to do
this for yourself.

I had the opportunity to do that to a degree on the
SSA convention floor. I
listed what I thought were the pros and cons of each
ship to help me decide.
Still, I missed a bunch of stuff, like the robustness
of the 26's main gear,
and many of the smaller things that I only discovered
after really exploring
the ins and outs of my 26E after taking delivery.

Those that know me would vouch for this, I tend to
be a perfectionist when
it comes to things mechanical. I appreciate things
that have been made well
.. . . not just on the outside, but also beneath the
skin.

BTW, advantages I listed for the DG 800 series included:

Much better factory web site.
More progressive factory, at least in terms of being
willing to quickly
embrace new ideas and technology like NOAH and 'Piggott
hook'.
Lower cockpit sides for ease of exit.
Two piece wings allow shorter trailer.

bumper

A couple of DG800 advantages that bumper overlooked.

1) An engine that doesn't cost $17000 to replace.
2) An engine that can be worked on with out having
to remove it from the fuselage. While this may not
seem like something you will ever have to do you'll
want to keep a couple of big friends around for spark
plugs changes. I believe there were at least three
engines pulled for one problem or another at this years
ASA Parowan camp. They also had their own cart to haul
the engines around for repairs but I'm not sure if
thats a standard 26 option.
3) A superior engine management system (DEI) with manual
back up.

IMO the engine related issues sum up the big difference
between these two ships as performance both in glide
and under power are way similar. The 26 has a smoother
engine and the 800 has one, which is easier and cheaper
to maintain. They are both state of the art ships and
you won't be sorry for buying either.
DG has done a pretty fair comparison between the 26/800/Ventus
2cM that can be viewed here –
http://tinyurl.com/yz4shs

wrote:
I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now that
DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching guys
think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared to
9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall
warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in
the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus
these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would
you like to see in the next self launch glider?

Another place to ask this question is on the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
Association's newsgroup at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ASA-NewsGroup/

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Have not flown the DG800, just 300/500/600/1000. All those flew
nicely. One thing I found out about the AS-W26 is that it's a BEAUTIFUL
flying glider... Like an oversized 27, with perhaps an even more
comfortable cockpit. Coordination seems perfect (it has a big enough
rudder).
Mine has the heavier wings (they'll chase your friends away unless
you have a one-man rigger) but higher MGW and therefore higher maximum
wing loading. The lower serial numbers are also certified Experimental
in the USA, handy unless you're sending it overseas.
The LONG trailer is going to get my "lift kit" mod, a 2" square steel
tube between the axle and the trailer chassis. This helps with ground
clearance and is hardly noticeable for rigging.
Jim

JS wrote:

The LONG trailer is going to get my "lift kit" mod, a 2" square steel
tube between the axle and the trailer chassis. This helps with ground
clearance and is hardly noticeable for rigging.
Jim

Thanks for that idea!

My 800 has one piece wings and a trailer longer than an ASH-25's. I've
been wondering how to help it over drains and speed bumps.

GC

JS wrote:
Have not flown the DG800, just 300/500/600/1000. All those flew
nicely. One thing I found out about the AS-W26 is that it's a BEAUTIFUL
flying glider... Like an oversized 27, with perhaps an even more
comfortable cockpit. Coordination seems perfect (it has a big enough
rudder).
Mine has the heavier wings (they'll chase your friends away unless
you have a one-man rigger) but higher MGW and therefore higher maximum
wing loading. The lower serial numbers are also certified Experimental
in the USA, handy unless you're sending it overseas.
The LONG trailer is going to get my "lift kit" mod, a 2" square steel
tube between the axle and the trailer chassis. This helps with ground
clearance and is hardly noticeable for rigging.

I suggest you tow it around for a couple thousand miles before making
any changes, as you might discover it's not so bad! I've towed my Cobra
trailer behind our 23 foot motorhome (which has a moderate overhang) for
100,00+ miles all over the country. The hitch height is set so the
trailer is slightly higher in the back(about 1"). The back end drags
occasionally going in and out of parking lots and gas stations, but it
doesn't harm the trailer because it's designed to accept that abuse. A
vehicle with a shorter overhang, like a car, mini-van, or SUV, wouldn't
drag it as often.

I did finally wear out those little aluminum skids on the rear end this
year, but replacements are on the way.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric Greenwell wrote:

I suggest you tow it around for a couple thousand miles before making
any changes, as you might discover it's not so bad! I've towed my Cobra
trailer behind our 23 foot motorhome (which has a moderate overhang) for
100,00+ miles all over the country. The hitch height is set so the
trailer is slightly higher in the back(about 1"). The back end drags
occasionally going in and out of parking lots and gas stations, but it
doesn't harm the trailer because it's designed to accept that abuse. A
vehicle with a shorter overhang, like a car, mini-van, or SUV, wouldn't
drag it as often.

I did finally wear out those little aluminum skids on the rear end this
year, but replacements are on the way.

I've towed mine for a little over 1000km and I've dragged the skids
somewhere each trip regardless of how careful I am about going over
stuff diagonally. Even if it does it nowhere else, it does it on the
drain at the entrance to the Club's field.

I'm stuck with a fixed tow ball height so I think JS's suggestion is a
good idea.

GC