Primary training in a Hi Perf complex acft

John Mazor wrote:

One sufficiently bad pilot screw up = one smoking hole.

Talking of which, what's your current observation of the fallout from AA587 ?

Graham

Eeyore writes:

I suspect he means they might be tempted into 'overcontrolling' but lacks the
vocabulary or brains to say so.

What I mean is that they simply have no experience flying such an aircraft,
and experience with a tin can will not help to any significant extent.
Indeed, it may only hurt, by giving them the dangerous and incorrect belief
that they can fly anything because they can fly a tin can. They will tend to
try what is familiar (flying by hand), instead of what is necessary (flying
with automation), potentially with tragic results.

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Eeyore writes:

I thought the FAA still held autoland in contempt.

I don't know what the FAA thinks of autoland, but the FAA governs only
aviation in the United States. The world is a big place, and some countries
have extremely casual standards for airline pilots.

The FAA requires that crews and aircraft with autoland capability periodically
engage in it, for currency.

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On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:25:57 -0500, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:


Sheesh!

I though it had some endearing qualities, and still do. The nay sayers
really overstate.

Peter


I allegedly trained in one, and allegedly maintained 5 that
accumulated around 15000 hours.

It is a FAA type certificated airplane, other than that, they are
semi-ugly to fly and fully-ugly to maintain.

Again, since it was designed from a clean sheet, supposedly from input
from flight instructors, there is really no excuse for how it turned
out.

Somebody (not me, not going there again) ought to stall/spin one and
video the tail shaking and post it on utoob.

Regards;

TC

Most students seem to take longer, but they get there. I think a lot of
it is instructor familiarity. If you are going to instruct in a Bonanza
you need to be thoroughly familiar with that plane yourself, or you are
going to be wasting some of your student's time while you learn the
systems and the ways that a plane like this can bite you. Mesa Pilot
Development regularly teaches private pilots in the A36. Personally, I
find this airplane to be physically uncomfortable, but I can't put my
finger exactly on why.

As for any other airplane, such as the Cirrus, it is simply a matter of
getting the student to stay ahead of the airplane. This is a big
drawback, actually, of teaching in slow taildraggers. If a tricycle
gear airplane is too forgiving of sloppy landings, the slow planes are
too forgiving of sloppy inflight procedures.

Traumahawk-worst of both worlds. Scary thing is that it was a
"clean-sheet" trainer...

TC

Sheesh!

I though it had some endearing qualities, and still do. The nay sayers
really overstate.

Peter

Junior's operation gave the FAA fits. Nobody could figure out how he did
what he did without accidents, but he did :-) The airplanes didn't look
all that hot either, but he kept them in flying condition and
mechanically they were fine.
Junior was just a character who drove the main stream folks and the big
money boys crazy. He loved every minute of it too :-))
In the end analysis, what Junior did for aviation was actually
substantial. Along with his "you got the bucks, I got the Mustang"
operation, he also served as an extremely competent checkout "service"
for the guys with deep pockets who owned WW2 aircraft simply because
they had the bucks to do so. I, along with a ton of the guys who along
with me knew a little bit about this end of the business all agree that
what Junior did that was valuable was to keep these people with money
and little else in the way of experience from killing themselves in
their own airplanes. Many of these big money folks literally owe their
lives to Burchinal. By the time he got through with them, they had a
fighting chance to stay alive in their P51's and F8F's. :-))
Dudley Henriques

Jim Logajan wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
One example of what you folks are discussing on this thread would be
the Paris Texas operation back in the sixties run by Junior Burchinal.
(Issac Newton to his friends :-)
Junior would take you from not knowing anything at all, right though a
complete checkout in his Mustang or his Bearcat, or several other
military airplanes.

Funny you should mention Burchinal - I recently finished reading "Zero 3
Bravo" by Mariana Gosnell (about a cross-country flight in her Luscombe
Silvaire) and she has a chapter on meeting him and getting a chance to
fly with him in a T-33. Quite a character! Claimed to be a reformed
boozer (claimed to drink to get his courage up to fly - which he wanted
to do more than anything in the world). A few quotes from the book:

Burchinal:
'"One day I was flying home from Dallas in in a ragwing Luscombe[!] I'd
cracked up the day before landing in a fog when I was half drunk and
stepped on the brakes too hard. I put a cloth over the torn part of the
windshield, had a couple swigs of tequila, and took off."'

(And the reason one person came to view his B-17

'One Israeli made a beeline for the B-17 and started crying as soon as
he sat in the pilot's seat. He told Burchinal why. During World War II
his parents, who were Jewish, hid him and his little sister under the
floor of their house in Holland and told them if they heard a noise in
the night they should run away to a cave that had been prepared for
them. One night they did hear a noise. "The Gestapo came to the house
and slit his parents' throats," said Burchinal. "He and his sister ran
away and hid in the cave. The cave was on a hillside and during the day
they usually stayed there but at night they'd sneak down to the valley
and take food from people's gardens. One day they were standing outside
and saw Germans with bloodhounds climbing up the hill toward them. They
stood hugging each other. They were sure this was the end of their
lives. But instead of a few shots they heard thousands of rounds of
ammunition. Then they saw a B-17 flying up the hillside, shooting at
every German in sight. When it passed them the pilot waved. The Israeli
said he'd never forget that as long as he lived."'

One story, out of several close calls, related in the book:
'Once during a takeoff in the P-38 the canopy's emergency latch came off
and then the canopy itself, tearing loose the top of Burchinal's and a
student's scalps. "By the time they landed, the student's scalp was
flapping in the slipstream," said Bo. (Bo is his son.)

A bunch of other tales, some tall, squeezed into that 14 page chapter.
(E.g. Mariana met the woman from Paris, France who Burchinal claimed was
the first female civilian to solo a T-33. How he came to have his own
chapel, and so on.)

Sheesh!

I though it had some endearing qualities, and still do. The nay sayers
really overstate.

Peter


I allegedly trained in one, and allegedly maintained 5 that
accumulated around 15000 hours.

It is a FAA type certificated airplane, other than that, they are
semi-ugly to fly and fully-ugly to maintain.

Again, since it was designed from a clean sheet, supposedly from input
from flight instructors, there is really no excuse for how it turned
out.

Somebody (not me, not going there again) ought to stall/spin one and
video the tail shaking and post it on utoob.

Regards;

TC

I temporarily forgot about that last part...

I never got to spin one, but a look back during a stall could give a guy
religeon. That tee tail wiggled more than a Hawaiian girl at a Luau!

I have heard that the Tomahawk was originally designed to have a
conventional tail--which would have made it a much better airplane in
several ways.

Peter

Traumahawk-worst of both worlds. Scary thing is that it was a
"clean-sheet" trainer...

I trained in a Traumahawk. I liked it. When I checked out in the 152,
I found it to be a dog in comparison.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Mxsmanic wrote:

Eeyore writes:

I suspect he means they might be tempted into 'overcontrolling' but lacks the
vocabulary or brains to say so.

What I mean is that they simply have no experience flying such an aircraft,
and experience with a tin can will not help to any significant extent.

LMAO !

Have you ever flown ? As in PIC that is ?

Graham

Mxsmanic wrote:

John Mazor writes:

You didn't have that geographic qualifier when you made your
sweeping statement. It's true that a few countries are
using ab initio training to breed their own pilots, but
that's a tiny minority.

Minority or not, it proves that it can be done.

Starting and finishing in a jet airliner is a pretty good proof of concept for
primary training in a high-performance aircraft.

Uh ? Ab-initio training involves getting a PPL first anyway.

Do you think they put beginners in heavy twins to begin with ?

Graham