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Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 16th 19, 04:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 8
Default Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.

On Friday, November 15, 2019 at 1:29:43 PM UTC-8, Charlie Quebec wrote:
The first thing you need to do if you want a 19m go well is check the profile accuracy, Slingsby never managed to get it as good as the Germans. That’s why the 10 gained only one L/D point after adding 2 meters. Striefeneder used to do the canopy mod, but when I asked them said it was too expensive to be worthwhile, I’ve got a photo somewhere of one that was done, and it looks great. It won’t give you any better performance though.
In the UK several have been legally modified to 20M span. A slingsby Vega canopy fits exactly, as the front was from the Kestrel. Just a canopy frame and bubble without labour will be well more than you have budgeted.


I am having the fairing looked at, agreeing with you wholeheartedly. I am trying to put off doing paint and fiberglass work as long as I can--with the fiberglass being one of the birds better features.

Did people find the 20M mod worth the effort and expense??? I know lugging around 19M wings at close to 120 pounds a piece is going to get old.

Please do tell me more about where I can get a Vega Canopy--wanting to add six inches to the bubble, so I fit, being close to seven feet tall and 279 pounds. If I can get the attaching hardware--I will blow the bubble myself--so I was discounting the price, doing what I have skills to do.

Biggest thing for me, since I am updating the canopy anyway is to make egress and entry much more easy.

Thinking winglets offer the longer wing aspects, with many desirable traits having them. At 20M of wing, not sure there is much advantage left for winglets.
  #22  
Old November 16th 19, 04:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.

On Friday, November 15, 2019 at 2:15:05 PM UTC-8, Jonathon May wrote:
At 21:29 15 November 2019, Charlie Quebec wrote:
The first thing you need to do if you want a 19m go well is check

the
profi=
le accuracy, Slingsby never managed to get it as good as the

Germans. That=
=E2=80=99s why the 10 gained only one L/D point after adding 2

meters.
Stri=
efeneder used to do the canopy mod, but when I asked them said it

was too
e=
xpensive to be worthwhile, I=E2=80=99ve got a photo somewhere

of one that
w=
as done, and it looks great. It won=E2=80=99t give you any better
performan=
ce though.
In the UK several have been legally modified to 20M span. A

slingsby Vega
c=
anopy fits exactly, as the front was from the Kestrel. Just a canopy

frame
=
and bubble without labour will be well more than you have

budgeted.


Don is starting to show his 80+years,I have not seen him at the
gliding club this year.


Don is legendary, even stateside.

Because of him, I am endeavoring to make a Kestrel T59D fit a 279 pound, nearly seven foot tall pilot. Bought the plane and cannot even fly it until I get some mods done.

Have to make a 6 inch taller canopy. Have to move my body back two inches into the wing root--trading off my body weight as the wings water ballast.

I will be a rocket in the skies. Even the trailer will look amazing when I am done. I have a reasonable, yet serious budget to finish this airplane--I am so big in size, have had to plan this for years. If it was not for Bob, probably would not have ever entertained this large and risky of a project.

Figuring I am only a test pilot for the first fifteen minutes-then if all things work, I get to find out how well.

If anyone runs into Don, send him prayers from Stateside. The man has gone where very few venture, and I would like to recreate some of his work--only with my new data.

I think I can reach 48:1 with that aircraft.

Stephen G. Elder
Chief Operation Officer
Precision Innovation
Black Ops Division
(951) 515-6029
  #23  
Old November 16th 19, 05:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie Quebec
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Posts: 253
Default Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.

You will be 16kg + parachute over the maximum pilot weight 110kg, ( this is also the limit for the harness as standard) and out of the CG range without adding tail ballast, and worst of all, after that, significantly over the max weight of the none lifting parts. The Canopies are not blown, as they get too thin as they stretch, they are formed by forcing a plug upwards into the hot plastic.
Not trying to rain on you parade, but you should know this.
  #24  
Old November 16th 19, 11:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Posts: 402
Default Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.

With all these modifications, he will probably push best L/D from 44 to 44.5, plus he will be a test pilot for the reasons you cite.

And after the first contest he will have learned that it's not max L/D which matters, but L/D's at 90 ot 130 kts. At these speeds, a Kestrel basically falls out of the sky, regardless of any lipstick. Especially if the span has been increased.

My advice would be to sell this ship, and get one he'll fit in without making changes. ASW20 would be a good start, or Open Cirrus. Both are less, or significantly less, than 30k.
  #25  
Old November 17th 19, 06:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 145
Default Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.

On Saturday, November 16, 2019 at 4:51:21 PM UTC-6, Tango Whisky wrote:
With all these modifications, he will probably push best L/D from 44 to 44.5, plus he will be a test pilot for the reasons you cite.

And after the first contest he will have learned that it's not max L/D which matters, but L/D's at 90 ot 130 kts. At these speeds, a Kestrel basically falls out of the sky, regardless of any lipstick. Especially if the span has been increased.

My advice would be to sell this ship, and get one he'll fit in without making changes. ASW20 would be a good start, or Open Cirrus. Both are less, or significantly less, than 30k.


Having owned a 401, and I loved it, I regrettably agree with Tango Whiskey, other than the selling part . I'd look for ways to improve the L/D at the higher speeds. Adding tips doesn't change the wing thickness near the root and you have to push that through the air at the higher speeds, so I'm guessing with the wing extension the polars will still converge to something VERY similar at 80 kts or more.
Now for the great news. It's a fantastic glider with very pleasant handling that by it's nature teaches good flying habits. Go take it for a few x/c flights and then decide what you want to do with it. Turns out it's pretty well engineered for what it is. Yes, the airbrakes are somewhat ineffective but it has flaps/landing flaps and the descent rate is more than adequate. As a result, it lands pretty slow making the wheel brake sufficient if working properly. Get the drogue chute working and practice that if you really want to make a super short landing. Mine had one and I never did, though I do regret not doing it once at least.
A single, connected canopy would be a fantastic upgrade if done right and would eliminate the gliders weakest feature, where do you put the canopy while rigging on a windy day...
As to flying it, I focused on maximizing what the glider could do well, mostly by trying to minimize the time circling. Spend $60 and buy SeeYou and look at circling percentage for each flight. Select your thermals wisely and perfect thermal entry. Fly into cloudstreets or any lift lines at the lowest altitude that makes sense, and out the end high and fast. Enjoy the pleasant handling all the way, it's a fun glider to fly and a fantastic value.
  #26  
Old November 17th 19, 07:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Default Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 09:05:52 -0800, archerzulu wrote:

Spend $60 and buy
SeeYou and look at circling percentage for each flight. Select your
thermals wisely and perfect thermal entry. Fly into cloudstreets or any
lift lines at the lowest altitude that makes sense, and out the end high
and fast. Enjoy the pleasant handling all the way, it's a fun glider to
fly and a fantastic value.


I agree with all the advice given about flight analysis, but would add
that, if you're happy with installing applications written in Perl, i.e.
yo have to install the Perl runtime first, then using GPLIGC is a
reasonable alternative. It can convert a flight log into a KML file that
can be displayed with Google Earth. GPLIGC can be downloaded from:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/gpligc/




--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #27  
Old November 17th 19, 10:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
john firth
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Posts: 127
Default Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.

On Thursday, June 11, 2009 at 2:45:37 AM UTC-4, Bruce wrote:
OK

Anyone out there with experience in converting the T59D / 401 Kestrel
canopy from the awful removable thing with a hoop exactly where you want
to watch the tug, to a single piece.

Apparently there is an approved mod using a DG200 canopy.

Second question is - would there be anyone with such a canopy /frame
assembly for sale. As I understand it you need the entire DG hinge and
pedestal part too.

FWIW - I am considering modifying a Mark 2 Slingsby T59D Kestrel 19m -
though to the best of my knowledge the canopy and cockpit is identical
on the various Kestrels.

Any advice gladly received.

Cheers
Bruce


As usual ,I agree with Martin; I owned a K19 ( a 1972 model)for ten years and only sold it because I wanted to go 15M class.
It will indeed land very short if needed; landing flap, 45 kts and tailchute
as you flair will get you down inside 100M.
However, as supplied by Slingsby, there were a few things I wanted to change.
The cusp on the elevator added to provide "feel" at higher speeds made it
impossible to trim over 80 kts; cut it off to K17 elevator size;
anyway, I hated the trim system on the stick and locked it out except
for long glides.
The coupling of wheel brake to air brakes meant you had neither full
and ineffective airbrakes nor adequate wheel brake. Added separate brake lever.
The factory ballast bags held far too little (120 lb ??)
Made my own vinyl bags holding 250lb but the dump was too slow and wetted
the brake drum. Added a down tube ( also a filler tube) to the gear doors.
I reckoned that the max AUW was predicated on a rough field take-off
so not a problem from a smooth grass field.
For a chance at 750 km in Ontario I needed the weight ( add 50lbs inn the O2
tank holder) for cruise at 80-90 kts, and as Moffatt observed for the Nimbus 2
the higher wing loading makes it a different glider.
Proof of the pudding, on a good but not exceptional Ontario day, I passed
the 500KM mark past TP 2 in 4 1/2 hrs. For a 1970s design it was pretty good.
John Firth
an old no longer bold pilot.
PS never checked the profile accuracy but filled in the over spar dip.
  #28  
Old November 19th 19, 09:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 8
Default Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.

On Friday, November 15, 2019 at 8:39:50 PM UTC-8, Charlie Quebec wrote:
You will be 16kg + parachute over the maximum pilot weight 110kg, ( this is also the limit for the harness as standard) and out of the CG range without adding tail ballast, and worst of all, after that, significantly over the max weight of the none lifting parts. The Canopies are not blown, as they get too thin as they stretch, they are formed by forcing a plug upwards into the hot plastic.
Not trying to rain on you parade, but you should know this.


You are not raining on my parade...

By no means, I welcome all thoughts.

As to CG, I am moving my body weight farther back into the wing by two inches--where water ballast normally would be. All calcs and work will be done professionally--with wife not accepting self as a test pilot. That dog don't hunt.

The sailplane I own has a empty gross weight of 330kg, and fully loaded gross weight of 472kg. That leaves 15.42kg for gear, that I may or may not add at a future date. The rest of the gross weight is my Canary Ass at 125.552Kg at Seven foot, two inches tall...

Short guys are the lucky ones when it comes to gliders. Strap on and go, I have always flown customized gliders--with last being a Pilatus B4. My heart was broken when the club let that bird go--too much bird that fit too few people in the club. Our soaring club formerly was mostly novice flyers--outside of perhaps ten of us old goats.

Back to the Kestrel...

Even added roughly 4kg as a penalty of a serious harness upgrade. The mounts also had to be backed with aluminum load distribution plates. The nice folks from a tandem parachute company helped me obtain the 500Kg five point harness I am yet to purchase in fire engine red, royal blue, charcoal, or grey. If people can hang safely from the harness with a second person attached for two years--seems reasonable it can keep me from bouncing in a seat for ten years.

Agreed on making a plug for the windshield--and thermoforming, sometimes writing faster than I think and edit. Basic plan is to make a carbon fiber turtle deck--saving kg's, a carbon fiber windshield enclosure--saving more kg's offsetting the weight of the comfortable six inch rise in new window. As the housing that extends to the front of the glider--it will be more efficient in not dumping precious laminar flow.

I am not looking to gain more L/D--just get published values. People do not realize that L/D is illusive and not many people truly attain all their bird has to offer. Seals, air leaks, anything destroys laminar flow--I am not being a test pilot--I am just conscientiously eliminating wasted L/D.
  #29  
Old November 19th 19, 09:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.

On Saturday, November 16, 2019 at 2:51:21 PM UTC-8, Tango Whisky wrote:
With all these modifications, he will probably push best L/D from 44 to 44.5, plus he will be a test pilot for the reasons you cite.

And after the first contest he will have learned that it's not max L/D which matters, but L/D's at 90 ot 130 kts. At these speeds, a Kestrel basically falls out of the sky, regardless of any lipstick. Especially if the span has been increased.

My advice would be to sell this ship, and get one he'll fit in without making changes. ASW20 would be a good start, or Open Cirrus. Both are less, or significantly less, than 30k.


Have you really looked at the Kestrel performance? Friend, the handicap is currently set at .88... Quarter million dollar ships in same class beat out the Kestrel by fractions (New Discuss .85)... The Kestrel is quite comfortable running at 150kts and walks away from most planes.

FYI, Kestrels VNE is 250kts..

The biggest problem I have is being 279 pounds, and seven foot tall... Any bird I look at will take modifications.

I am not being crazy with mods, just making sure the plane performs to published L/D. If you did read above--all things are being professionally done to the aircraft, including calcs... If I show up on the National scene with a 50 year old glass ship--lots of folks are going to have egg on their face.

I do believe you have underestimated this fine old aircraft. All fixits to the plane are capped at thirty, and the trailer needs six, and cost me 17 to purchase.

Have a little faith in a fellow poor guy, I will make you proud this coming year. This 50 year old bird may not come in first, but she sure will be respectable in national standings. I just cannot afford a quarter of a million dollars and will be happy to place third, fourth, or fifth...
  #30  
Old November 19th 19, 09:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 8
Default Kestrel DG200 canopy mod.

On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 9:05:55 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, November 16, 2019 at 4:51:21 PM UTC-6, Tango Whisky wrote:
With all these modifications, he will probably push best L/D from 44 to 44.5, plus he will be a test pilot for the reasons you cite.

And after the first contest he will have learned that it's not max L/D which matters, but L/D's at 90 ot 130 kts. At these speeds, a Kestrel basically falls out of the sky, regardless of any lipstick. Especially if the span has been increased.

My advice would be to sell this ship, and get one he'll fit in without making changes. ASW20 would be a good start, or Open Cirrus. Both are less, or significantly less, than 30k.


Having owned a 401, and I loved it, I regrettably agree with Tango Whiskey, other than the selling part . I'd look for ways to improve the L/D at the higher speeds. Adding tips doesn't change the wing thickness near the root and you have to push that through the air at the higher speeds, so I'm guessing with the wing extension the polars will still converge to something VERY similar at 80 kts or more.
Now for the great news. It's a fantastic glider with very pleasant handling that by it's nature teaches good flying habits. Go take it for a few x/c flights and then decide what you want to do with it. Turns out it's pretty well engineered for what it is. Yes, the airbrakes are somewhat ineffective but it has flaps/landing flaps and the descent rate is more than adequate. As a result, it lands pretty slow making the wheel brake sufficient if working properly. Get the drogue chute working and practice that if you really want to make a super short landing. Mine had one and I never did, though I do regret not doing it once at least.
A single, connected canopy would be a fantastic upgrade if done right and would eliminate the gliders weakest feature, where do you put the canopy while rigging on a windy day...
As to flying it, I focused on maximizing what the glider could do well, mostly by trying to minimize the time circling. Spend $60 and buy SeeYou and look at circling percentage for each flight. Select your thermals wisely and perfect thermal entry. Fly into cloudstreets or any lift lines at the lowest altitude that makes sense, and out the end high and fast. Enjoy the pleasant handling all the way, it's a fun glider to fly and a fantastic value.


I agree with everything you have said.

I am changing the plane to fit a 279 pound body, with seven foot tall frame..

The changes being made are to reduce drag, and hopefully arrive at published numbers with my body weight. I want to compete this next year, and have never had a plane capable of doing so till this year.

I bought the plane and have not been able to sit in it yet. Come January, I will have my first tow in her. New harnesses, new CG position for my body, two inches back of current max pilot position, less rear ballast, new upholstery, a six inch taller canopy, longer rudder pedals, more clearance at the knees for my legs to fit in, new radios.

All in all... Read the bits I wrote above, being pretty responsible in what I am doing to this plane. Plus, when I am done and can afford something sleeker--the plane will easily fetch three times a standard Kestrel.

All modern conveniences, professionally designed and built for a heavy and very tall pilot, trailer redone to perfection in three colors... Grey bottom half, 2 inch Red Stripe, White top, and supporting latticed iron in gloss black, with aluminum mag wheels... All of the above, lifted by Timbren Axle-less Axles, and electric brakes.

I will have built a ten year dream machine for 30 grand, with a handicap of .88...

Color me dumb, sounds pretty reasonable to me... Don Austin went crazy on his Kestrel and loved it for years--he is my inspiration on this labor of love.
 




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