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#61
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Nobody dreamed Pearl would have been the target. Nonsense. Ever hear of Billy Mitchell? Numerous people envisioned an attack on Pearl Harbor. Claire Chennault was part of war games in the early 1930s that gamed such an attack. Of course, people also envisioned an attack on the Panama Canal and New York City. After the attack, whether it's Pearl Harbor or the World Trade Center, the conspiracy buffs trot out the clear trail of warning that *any fool* would have noticed. It seems very obvious to us now that the Japanese would attack Hawaii. It didn't seem obvious in December 1941. (What was obvious was that they would attack Malaya, Indonesia, and the Philippines. Nobody there was prepared, either. And if somebody was, little good it did him.) all the best -- Dan Ford email: (put Cubdriver in subject line) The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com |
#62
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Cub Driver wrote:
Nobody dreamed Pearl would have been the target. Nonsense. Ever hear of Billy Mitchell? Numerous people envisioned an attack on Pearl Harbor. Claire Chennault was part of war games in the early 1930s that gamed such an attack. Of course, people also envisioned an attack on the Panama Canal and New York City. After the attack, whether it's Pearl Harbor or the World Trade Center, the conspiracy buffs trot out the clear trail of warning that *any fool* would have noticed. Your straw man is hopelessly lame. There's no need to allege conspiracy here, MacArthur, Kimmel and Short were asleep at the switch. They ignored one warning after another. They should have hanged the lot of them. It seems very obvious to us now that the Japanese would attack Hawaii. It didn't seem obvious in December 1941. Then why was Pearl surrounded with gun emplacements? Were they figuring to flock shoot pheasants? Why did they have interceptors based in Hawaii? What were they going to intercept? How big would a P40's drop tanks have to be to attack Tokyo and return? Do you think Hawaii was a training base? Cheaper than Texas? Why base interceptors where you don't expect an attack? What, if anything, are the Kimmel/Short apologists thinking of? (What was obvious was that they would attack Malaya, Indonesia, and the Philippines. Don't forget Singapore. That surrender made Churchill pull the covers up over his head. About 30,000 Japanese on bicycles rolled up a UK garrison of 88,000. Turns out that the Gibraltar of the east was the Tobruk of Asia times two. Nobody there was prepared, either. It wasn't because of lack of supply or other support from the states. If they'd had twice the resources the Japanese would have had twice as many targets. The problem was a lack of leadership. If you'd have swapped Allied generals and admirals with those of the Japanese, the outcomes would have been reversed. And if somebody was, little good it did him.) The notion that resistance to the Japanese was hopeless is what made it hopeless. If the Allied heroes had gathered their wits and acted like leaders instead of pathetic old geezers, the second week of December 41 could have turned out far differently. Cheers --mike all the best -- Dan Ford email: (put Cubdriver in subject line) The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com |
#63
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"John" == John Carrier writes:
John Taranto was relatively deep, on the order of 100' IIRC. John Pearl was 40'. No standard aerial torpedo would operate John properly in that harbor. SOOOO, the Japanese developed one John that would. Not only did they develop a torpedo that would work, they also trained their torpedo bomber crews to the extent that they could drop those tropedos in the very restrictive envelope in which it would work. No easy task, and it made the bombers very vulnerable, as witnessed by Nevada's score of 5 downed as they flew past. As has been pointed out in a different thread, the TB guys had big brass ones (not suggesting the others didn't, but it's hard to concentrate when you know you're a sitting duck). -- G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan |
#64
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John Carrier wrote in message ...
Taranto was relatively deep, on the order of 100' IIRC. Pearl was 40'. No standard aerial torpedo would operate properly in that harbor. SOOOO, the Japanese developed one that would. Be careful here, Taranto is two harbours, a near land locked Mar Piccolo, the channel to which could handle cruisers and below and the 12 square mile Mar Grande, an artificial harbour formed by breakwaters that incorporated two islands out in what was the bay, which is where the battleships were berthed, amongst the barrage balloons and anti torpedo nets. All the battleships were berthed near the main coastline on the night of the RN strike, one was being sheltered by a further breakwater the Diga di Tarancola. As far as I am aware the water depth where the Italian Navy battleships were berthed was less that the depth in Pearl Harbor, Taranto at 42 feet versus Pearl Harbor at 45 feet. By the looks of it at Taranto 5 of the 9 torpedo droppers actually approached from over the Taranto urban area. Battleships have the deepest draft, typically a WWII US battleship was around 35 to 36 feet, at designed full load, before the wartime overloading, the battleships end up in the deepest part of the harbor. Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email. |
#65
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"Mike Dargan" wrote in message
news:gaK3d.128016$3l3.43395@attbi_s03... Cub Driver wrote: Nobody dreamed Pearl would have been the target. Nonsense. Ever hear of Billy Mitchell? Numerous people envisioned an attack on Pearl Harbor. Claire Chennault was part of war games in the early 1930s that gamed such an attack. Of course, people also envisioned an attack on the Panama Canal and New York City. After the attack, whether it's Pearl Harbor or the World Trade Center, the conspiracy buffs trot out the clear trail of warning that *any fool* would have noticed. Your straw man is hopelessly lame. There's no need to allege conspiracy here, MacArthur, Kimmel and Short were asleep at the switch. They ignored one warning after another. They should have hanged the lot of them. It seems very obvious to us now that the Japanese would attack Hawaii. It didn't seem obvious in December 1941. Then why was Pearl surrounded with gun emplacements? Were they figuring to flock shoot pheasants? Why did they have interceptors based in Hawaii? What were they going to intercept? How big would a P40's drop tanks have to be to attack Tokyo and return? Do you think Hawaii was a training base? Cheaper than Texas? Why base interceptors where you don't expect an attack? What, if anything, are the Kimmel/Short apologists thinking of? (What was obvious was that they would attack Malaya, Indonesia, and the Philippines. Don't forget Singapore. That surrender made Churchill pull the covers up over his head. About 30,000 Japanese on bicycles rolled up a UK garrison of 88,000. Turns out that the Gibraltar of the east was the Tobruk of Asia times two. Nobody there was prepared, either. It wasn't because of lack of supply or other support from the states. If they'd had twice the resources the Japanese would have had twice as many targets. The problem was a lack of leadership. If you'd have swapped Allied generals and admirals with those of the Japanese, the outcomes would have been reversed. And if somebody was, little good it did him.) The notion that resistance to the Japanese was hopeless is what made it hopeless. If the Allied heroes had gathered their wits and acted like leaders instead of pathetic old geezers, the second week of December 41 could have turned out far differently. Great post. I still suspect there was more than a hint of racism in the assumptions that were made about the warmaking abilities of the Japanese. |
#66
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Cub
Of course, people also envisioned an attack on the Panama Canal and New York City. After the attack, whether it's Pearl Harbor or the World Trade Center, the conspiracy buffs trot out the clear trail of warning that *any fool* would have noticed. It seems very obvious to us now that the Japanese would attack Hawaii. It didn't seem obvious in December 1941. (What was obvious was that they would attack Malaya, Indonesia, and the Philippines. Nobody there was prepared, either. And if somebody was, little good it did him.) Yeah Right,a conspiracy but a very typical Anglo conspiracy. They got first definite warning about that in case of hostilities with Japan Pearl Harbor would be the first target on Jan.27,41. Afterwards they received hundreds more including intercepted JN-25B messages. BTW do the names like Roosevelt,Stimson,Marshall,Hull etc sound like German-American,Irish-American ,Italian or Hispanic-American names? "as America becomes an increasingly multicultural society ,it may find it more difficult to fashion on foreign policy issues except in the circumstances of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat" Zbigniew Brzezinski, 1997. The creation of such truly massive and widely perceived direct external threats is the job of the Members of the Anglo minority who govern US . It was true in 1941 it was also true in 2001. |
#67
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In article , denyav
writes Cub Of course, people also envisioned an attack on the Panama Canal and New York City. After the attack, whether it's Pearl Harbor or the World Trade Center, the conspiracy buffs trot out the clear trail of warning that *any fool* would have noticed. It seems very obvious to us now that the Japanese would attack Hawaii. It didn't seem obvious in December 1941. (What was obvious was that they would attack Malaya, Indonesia, and the Philippines. Nobody there was prepared, either. And if somebody was, little good it did him.) Yeah Right,a conspiracy but a very typical Anglo conspiracy. They got first definite warning about that in case of hostilities with Japan Pearl Harbor would be the first target on Jan.27,41. Afterwards they received hundreds more including intercepted JN-25B messages. BTW do the names like Roosevelt,Stimson,Marshall,Hull etc sound like German-American,Irish-American ,Italian or Hispanic-American names? Your ignorance transcends your idiocy and racism. "Roosevelt" is a Dutch name, like Stuyvesant, Van Buren, Brooklyn (Breukelen), Yonkers (Jonkheren), etc., etc. How does that fit in with your batty theories of "Anglo" (whatever the hell that means) conspiracy. What is it with you, anyway? Some good-looking Englishman steal your girl friend? "as America becomes an increasingly multicultural society ,it may find it more difficult to fashion on foreign policy issues except in the circumstances of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat" Zbigniew Brzezinski, 1997. The creation of such truly massive and widely perceived direct external threats is the job of the Members of the Anglo minority who govern US . It was true in 1941 it was also true in 2001. Do you mean it was as true in 2001 as it was in 1941, i.e. not at all, except in your fevered little brain cell? I wish I had an imagination as active as yours. Keep up the good work, it gives us a good laugh from time to time. -- Peter Ying tong iddle-i po! |
#68
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Do you mean it was as true in 2001 as it was in 1941, i.e. not at all,
except in your fevered little brain cell? I wish I had an imagination as active as yours. You dont need to ,even a third grader can understand what Brzezinski meant. Anglos were both in 1941 and 2001 a minority in US population.(if you are interested German-Americans make up biggest single ethnic group in US,ffollowed by Irish-Americans)but fully dominated decision making platforms both in 1941 and 2001. So if an ethnic group wants to rule a big country , they need either Republican Guard divisions manned by the members of ruling ethnic and/or religious group or if you cannot do that, PSYOPs that gives the impression that the US under massive external threat. Keep up the good work, it gives us a good laugh from time to time. -- Good Luck to all Anglos including our minority Anglos as well as to Anglos in Anglo homeland and in Australia. Anglo" (whatever the hell that means) conspiracy. Meaning of Anglo? Well you should check out works and deeds of great British Statesman Lord Rhodes. You know all of our Presidents are either Rhodes scholars or certified by Boston Brahmins. |
#69
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#70
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"Mike Dargan" wrote in message
news:eqM2d.452184$%_6.9665@attbi_s01... Ragnar wrote: "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "Mike Dargan" wrote in message news:lyr2d.206258$Fg5.67066@attbi_s53... The Pearl Harbor debacle is often blamed on lack of resources caused by inadequate support from the politicians. Wrong. Short and Kimmel had both quantitative and qualitative superiority but were hopelessly inept. While agreeing on the ineptitiude its clear that the IJN had a clear superiority in terms of modern fighter aircraft. Dig out Gordon Prange's book and do the numbers. P40s were adequate against the Japanese in China, thousands of miles from their supply depots. Why wouldn't they bave been adequate over Oahu? Also, why wasn't Kimmel running patrols? He didn't have resources to cover 360 degrees, but he certainly could have covered the NW quadrant for a couple of hundred miles. Washington had been bombing him with warnings for weeks. Geez. Couldn't he have just read the newspapers? Cheers --mike It wasn't Kimmel's job to run patrols. The Air Corps/USAAF got the sole responsiblity for the aerial defense of the US in 1935. This allowed them to get more long range bombers. They didn't take the coastal defense responsibility seriously. Their pilots were very poor at navigation and didn't like to fly over water. Joe They also had better ships in many cases. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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