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#21
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T-6 accident
"Darkwing" theducksmailATyahoo.com wrote What is the deal with the first crash shown in this video? Overstressed the aircraft and it came apart? Very strange. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=CnN9iIvVVto Catastrophic uncontained engine failure, is what I remember about that clip. -- Jim in NC |
#22
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T-6 accident
Morgans wrote:
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote doubt it or he would have turned into the ground pretty quickish. just not enough top rudder would be my guess. I looked at the rudder position as he completed the first 90 degrees of the roll, and it looked like the rudder was completely neutral. Did you see that, too? Rudder deflection isn't as much as one might imagine during a roll. Most pilots are used to looking at their own rudder deflection on the ground as they check the rudder throw each way. In a roll, with dynamic pressure on the rudder, it actually deflects very little to produce the desired effect. The flatness of his rotation off his roll axis between knife edge and impact would seem to indicate a bottom rudder producing yaw. If it was back pressure applied too early, assuming he had kept in the rolling aileron, as he continued to roll into knife edge and the nose came down, the back pressure would produce turn that should result in the impact being at the left wingtip rather than the flat rotation he seemed to experience prior to impact. Dudley -- Dudley Henriques |
#23
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T-6 accident
No it is an F14 doing a high speed pass just above the deck, then it banks
and a just explodes. It is kind if surreal like a Hollywood plane crash.- Go here for some detail on this unusual incident: http://alexisparkinn.com/military_videos.htm Scroll down to "F14A Tomcat Explosion" to view both the video and read several explanations of what might have caused the explosion. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#24
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T-6 accident
"Morgans" wrote in
: "Bertie the Bunyip" wrote doubt it or he would have turned into the ground pretty quickish. just not enough top rudder would be my guess. I looked at the rudder position as he completed the first 90 degrees of the roll, and it looked like the rudder was completely neutral. Did you see that, too? Yah, really hard to see with those blurry you tube things, but that's what it looked like, but what Dudley says makes sense. I think he went al lizard brained and started thrashing rather than flying the airplane through the error as he should have. Bertie |
#25
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T-6 accident
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message ... No it is an F14 doing a high speed pass just above the deck, then it banks and a just explodes. It is kind if surreal like a Hollywood plane crash.- Go here for some detail on this unusual incident: http://alexisparkinn.com/military_videos.htm Scroll down to "F14A Tomcat Explosion" to view both the video and read several explanations of what might have caused the explosion. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" Thanks Jay that definitely answered my question. |
#26
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T-6 accident
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:22:58 -0600, Big John
wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: WJRFlyBoy wrote in t: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Bertie I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before the video of the accident was posted. I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why. 1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise, when strip starts. This is a good entry technique. 2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll started. Again good technique. 3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level or very slightly nose down. 4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon. Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground. 5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line of flight. 6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off line of flight. 7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird. 8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without extra aileron. 9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow bird down. 10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact. Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from start to finish. Big John If I recall correctly, the pilot of the accident aircraft borrowed that T-6 for the accident flight (his T-6 was down for maintenance, something like that...). The story went that his T-6 had the "high throw" aileron bellcranks, but the borrowed / accident T-6 did not. Bela P. Havasreti |
#27
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T-6 accident
Bela P. Havasreti wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:22:58 -0600, Big John wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: WJRFlyBoy wrote in : On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Bertie I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before the video of the accident was posted. I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why. 1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise, when strip starts. This is a good entry technique. 2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll started. Again good technique. 3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level or very slightly nose down. 4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon. Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground. 5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line of flight. 6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off line of flight. 7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird. 8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without extra aileron. 9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow bird down. 10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact. Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from start to finish. Big John If I recall correctly, the pilot of the accident aircraft borrowed that T-6 for the accident flight (his T-6 was down for maintenance, something like that...). The story went that his T-6 had the "high throw" aileron bellcranks, but the borrowed / accident T-6 did not. Bela P. Havasreti The 6 had 2 choices of bell cranks on the ailerons. One was a 29up/15 down and the other a straight 15/15 if I recall. If the accident pilot was used to the roll rate and roll inertia resulting from a roll set initiated at his usual entry airspeed (aileron dynamic pressure) and rolled the borrowed aircraft with the asymmetrical aileron setup this could possibly explain a great deal to me as a display pilot. For a given airspeed, the aileron drag produced by the 29/15 setup would not have been what he was instinctively expecting and that could easily have spooked him as the roll commenced causing the control mis-application and confusion that seemed obvious from the crash. -- Dudley Henriques |
#28
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T-6 accident
Dudley Henriques wrote in
: Bela P. Havasreti wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:22:58 -0600, Big John wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: WJRFlyBoy wrote in : On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Bertie I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before the video of the accident was posted. I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why. 1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise, when strip starts. This is a good entry technique. 2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll started. Again good technique. 3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level or very slightly nose down. 4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon. Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground. 5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line of flight. 6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off line of flight. 7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird. 8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without extra aileron. 9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow bird down. 10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact. Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from start to finish. Big John If I recall correctly, the pilot of the accident aircraft borrowed that T-6 for the accident flight (his T-6 was down for maintenance, something like that...). The story went that his T-6 had the "high throw" aileron bellcranks, but the borrowed / accident T-6 did not. Bela P. Havasreti The 6 had 2 choices of bell cranks on the ailerons. One was a 29up/15 down and the other a straight 15/15 if I recall. If the accident pilot was used to the roll rate and roll inertia resulting from a roll set initiated at his usual entry airspeed (aileron dynamic pressure) and rolled the borrowed aircraft with the asymmetrical aileron setup this could possibly explain a great deal to me as a display pilot. For a given airspeed, the aileron drag produced by the 29/15 setup would not have been what he was instinctively expecting and that could easily have spooked him as the roll commenced causing the control mis-application and confusion that seemed obvious from the crash. Absolutely. It would have been like flying an almost entirely different airplane. There's a lesson there, alright.. Bertie |
#29
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T-6 accident
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bela P. Havasreti wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:22:58 -0600, Big John wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: WJRFlyBoy wrote in : On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with Youtube due to a plug-in I think.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8 Can you assess the problem? What, with my browser or the accident? The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't. The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of my youtube fun! Bertie Bertie I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before the video of the accident was posted. I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why. 1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise, when strip starts. This is a good entry technique. 2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll started. Again good technique. 3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level or very slightly nose down. 4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon. Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground. 5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line of flight. 6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off line of flight. 7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird. 8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without extra aileron. 9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow bird down. 10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact. Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from start to finish. Big John If I recall correctly, the pilot of the accident aircraft borrowed that T-6 for the accident flight (his T-6 was down for maintenance, something like that...). The story went that his T-6 had the "high throw" aileron bellcranks, but the borrowed / accident T-6 did not. Bela P. Havasreti The 6 had 2 choices of bell cranks on the ailerons. One was a 29up/15 down and the other a straight 15/15 if I recall. If the accident pilot was used to the roll rate and roll inertia resulting from a roll set initiated at his usual entry airspeed (aileron dynamic pressure) and rolled the borrowed aircraft with the asymmetrical aileron setup this could possibly explain a great deal to me as a display pilot. For a given airspeed, the aileron drag produced by the 29/15 setup would not have been what he was instinctively expecting and that could easily have spooked him as the roll commenced causing the control mis-application and confusion that seemed obvious from the crash. Absolutely. It would have been like flying an almost entirely different airplane. There's a lesson there, alright.. Bertie With this information, I honestly believe this is what got him. The asymmetrical cranks would buffet the ailerons in a full stick throw and from the film, he had considerable aileron in play judging from the roll rate I saw. If he got "unexpected" results from the lateral stick throw and felt some aileron buffet he wasn't expecting, this combination could have produced the exact result we saw on the film. Low altitude rolls are one area of flight where if you begin feeling something out of place during the roll, it could easily kill all but the most highly disciplined display pilot. Even then, it could be a crap shoot picking a result. You try to prepare for everything in your training as a display pilot, but there's always the unexpected. If that happens, even professionals can get that split second brain freeze where you try desperately to sort it out in the nano-second you have to do that. My guess is that this poor guy just got a split second behind what had to be done and the airplane started flying him instead of the other way around. It happens, and I've seen it happen to some of the finest pilots I've ever known. Sad fact of life in this venue unfortunately. -- Dudley Henriques |
#30
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T-6 accident
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