G.A. Fumes Poison Neighbors...No Surprise

In article ,
Jim Logajan wrote:

JG wrote:
"UCLA scientists have found that people who live and work near Santa
Monica Airport are exposed to high levels of air pollution -- a
significant health concern that has been largely associated with major
commercial airports such as LAX.

The study appears to be online here (not just the abstract):

http://pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/...75f?cookieSet=
1

According to it (section 3.3.2) it appears a heavy-duty diesel truck and
a jet taking off yield nearly identical particle concentrations. It would
seem that the neighbors are in the same situation as if they had moved near
a commercial site that had large trucks coming and going and the neigbors
got together to shut down the commercial site.

For comparison, I did a quick search for comparable studies on ultrafine
particle emissions near major roads. I only picked out just one that seemed
comparable (also LA area):

http://sunscreamer.com/publiccomment...%29%20405Fwy.p
df

Figure 4(c) (90 m downwind) and 4(f) (300 m upwind) seem to indicate that an
exposure factor about 17 times greater than background (comparing the peaks
in fig 4(c) and 4(f) and dividing: 1.0E5 / 6.0E3) Comparable to the airport
study finding a factor of about 10 for about the same distance from the
source.

As far as I can tell, the numbers seem to indicate that living near a busy
airport is about as dangerous as living near a major highway with respect to
ultrafine particle emissions. It seems that demanding that aircraft takeoffs
be reduced or shut down entirely at an airport would be equivalent to
demanding that the number of vehicles on a major highway be reduced or
shut down. The options to neighbors appears to be roughly the same in
both cases.

Did the study include particulate matter from tire dust that occurs
comes from tires rolling down the freeway? That matter would be minimal
from an airport but available in quantity from freeways.

The whole thing sounds to me like cherry-picked data.

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On Nov 20, 10:17*pm, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:
In article ,
*Jim Logajan wrote:





JG wrote:
"UCLA scientists have found that people who live and work near Santa
Monica Airport are exposed to high levels of air pollution -- a
significant health concern that has been largely associated with major
commercial airports such as LAX.

The study appears to be online here (not just the abstract):

http://pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/...21/es900975f?c...
1

According to it (section 3.3.2) it appears a heavy-duty diesel truck and
a jet taking off yield nearly identical particle concentrations. It would
seem that the neighbors are in the same situation as if they had moved near
a commercial site that had large trucks coming and going and the neigbors
got together to shut down the commercial site.

For comparison, I did a quick search for comparable studies on ultrafine
particle emissions near major roads. I only picked out just one that seemed
comparable (also LA area):

http://sunscreamer.com/publiccomment...02%20%282%29%2...
df

Figure 4(c) (90 m downwind) and 4(f) (300 m upwind) seem to indicate that an
exposure factor about 17 times greater than background (comparing the peaks
in fig 4(c) and 4(f) and dividing: 1.0E5 / 6.0E3) Comparable to the airport
study finding a factor of about 10 for about the same distance from the
source.

As far as I can tell, the numbers seem to indicate that living near a busy
airport is about as dangerous as living near a major highway with respect to
ultrafine particle emissions. It seems that demanding that aircraft takeoffs
be reduced or shut down entirely at an airport would be equivalent to
demanding that the number of vehicles on a major highway be reduced or
shut down. The options to neighbors appears to be roughly the same in
both cases.

Did the study include particulate matter from tire dust that occurs
comes from tires rolling down the freeway? That matter would be minimal
from an airport but available in quantity from freeways.

The whole thing sounds to me like cherry-picked data.

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Typical of shills to try and change the subject. I support closing SM
airport.

On Nov 22, 7:50*am, JG wrote:

Typical of shills to try and change the subject. I support closing SM
airport

You would.
Now, about the highway particulate counts?
Which highways do you demand also be closed?

Jim Logajan writes:

Why didn't the study compare these levels with being 300 feet downwind of
an LA freeway?

Because everyone drives on the freeways, whereas hardly anyone is a pilot, and
the objective is to eliminate the airport and turn over the valuable real
estate to developers.

So which was there first - Martin Rubin and the people in the community or
the airport?

It's not a matter of how is first, but of who has the best (read: most
expensive) lawyers.

In article
,
JG wrote:

On Nov 20, 10:17*pm, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:
In article ,
*Jim Logajan wrote:

As far as I can tell, the numbers seem to indicate that living near a
busy
airport is about as dangerous as living near a major highway with respect
to
ultrafine particle emissions. It seems that demanding that aircraft
takeoffs
be reduced or shut down entirely at an airport would be equivalent to
demanding that the number of vehicles on a major highway be reduced or
shut down. The options to neighbors appears to be roughly the same in
both cases.

Did the study include particulate matter from tire dust that occurs
comes from tires rolling down the freeway? That matter would be minimal
from an airport but available in quantity from freeways.

The whole thing sounds to me like cherry-picked data.

Typical of shills to try and change the subject.

Subject being inhaled airborne particulates, since when is bringing up
another common major source of them "changing the subject"?

I support closing SM airport.

Of course you do. And any old cudgel will do, whether it makes sense or
not.

Obsessive much?

In article
,
JG wrote:

On Nov 20, 10:17*pm, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:
In article ,
*Jim Logajan wrote:





JG wrote:
"UCLA scientists have found that people who live and work near Santa
Monica Airport are exposed to high levels of air pollution -- a
significant health concern that has been largely associated with major
commercial airports such as LAX.

The study appears to be online here (not just the abstract):

http://pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/...21/es900975f?c...
1

According to it (section 3.3.2) it appears a heavy-duty diesel truck and
a jet taking off yield nearly identical particle concentrations. It would
seem that the neighbors are in the same situation as if they had moved
near
a commercial site that had large trucks coming and going and the neigbors
got together to shut down the commercial site.

For comparison, I did a quick search for comparable studies on ultrafine
particle emissions near major roads. I only picked out just one that
seemed
comparable (also LA area):

http://sunscreamer.com/publiccomment...02%20%282%29%2...
df

Figure 4(c) (90 m downwind) and 4(f) (300 m upwind) seem to indicate that
an
exposure factor about 17 times greater than background (comparing the
peaks
in fig 4(c) and 4(f) and dividing: 1.0E5 / 6.0E3) Comparable to the
airport
study finding a factor of about 10 for about the same distance from the
source.

As far as I can tell, the numbers seem to indicate that living near a
busy
airport is about as dangerous as living near a major highway with respect
to
ultrafine particle emissions. It seems that demanding that aircraft
takeoffs
be reduced or shut down entirely at an airport would be equivalent to
demanding that the number of vehicles on a major highway be reduced or
shut down. The options to neighbors appears to be roughly the same in
both cases.

Did the study include particulate matter from tire dust that occurs
comes from tires rolling down the freeway? That matter would be minimal
from an airport but available in quantity from freeways.

The whole thing sounds to me like cherry-picked data.

--
Remove _'s *from email address to talk to me.

Typical of shills to try and change the subject. I support closing SM
airport.

Of course JG supports closing SMO -- he is an addlepated ignoranus (and
probably a developer, too!)

Of course, the hogs didn't eat him! There some things a hog just refuses
to eat!

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On Nov 19, 5:35*pm, JG wrote:

.....well, let's see. about 300 feet from the east end of 21 at samo,
there are two gas stations, one of which is probably where they took
the measurements. go about 2000 feet northeast of the runway, and you
have interstate 10, which starts to bottle up most days right around
samo because it ends and/or becomes the PCH in a couple miles; go one
mile straight down the approach path to the runway, and you have one
of the more notorious highway interchanges in california: the 10/405,
where it is not uncommon for cars (and large trucks) to sit idling for
a good bit more than 30 minutes, after having navigated the sepulveda
pass from the getty on down to the interchange itself at about 3 mph.
oh, and by the way: when you're holding for departure at samo, your
exhaust is pointed AWAY from the houses and apartments. then there's
bundy drive, ocean park blvd. and national blvd, all of which are
heavily travelled day and night. think any of those might contribute
to local pollution?

having lived near (and worked at) smo the la times article in question
is yet another attempt to boost lagging subscription and readership by
pandering to potential customers with utter nonsense like this. for
example, over the course of four years i never, ever, saw anyone hold
for longer than five minutes, and that was on a day like, for example,
today, when everyone and their brother is beating feet to grandma's
house. bottom line, smo goes away, and property values increase
exponentially, and this article is nothing more than an attempt to
help make that happen. interesting that in the somewhat less pricey
westchester neighborhood abutting (as in .4 miles from) 24R (the
northernmost runway) at lax you don't get this kind of crap coverage
in the l.a.t.. and there it is NOT uncommon to see a line of ten or
twelve 747-400s, airbus 340s and other oceanic hardware holding for an
hour, with all four turning. been there, done that (as a pax).

at this point, sadly, the l.a.t. is good for finding out what
britney's been up to, paper training your puppy and lining your bird
cage. for anything approaching "real" journalism, the weekly star or
national inquirer is a far better bet. as for ucla scientists and the
studies their students (actually) do, it'd be interesting to see how
many of them live in... santa monica.

just my $.02 worth.

"UCLA scientists have found that people who live and work near Santa
Monica Airport are exposed to high levels of air pollution -- a
significant health concern that has been largely associated with major
commercial airports such as LAX.

....snip the usual nimby b.s.


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...ir19-2009nov19,...

On Nov 25, 10:33 am, spanky wrote:
On Nov 19, 5:35 pm, JG wrote:

....well, let's see. about 300 feet from the east end of 21 at samo,
there are two gas stations, one of which is probably where they took
the measurements. go about 2000 feet northeast of the runway, and you
have interstate 10, which starts to bottle up most days right around
samo because it ends and/or becomes the PCH in a couple miles; go one
mile straight down the approach path to the runway, and you have one
of the more notorious highway interchanges in california: the 10/405,
where it is not uncommon for cars (and large trucks) to sit idling for
a good bit more than 30 minutes, after having navigated the sepulveda
pass from the getty on down to the interchange itself at about 3 mph.
oh, and by the way: when you're holding for departure at samo, your
exhaust is pointed AWAY from the houses and apartments.

The prevailing wind is from the WEST so all the exhaust crosses BUNDY
and heads into the houses.

bundy drive, ocean park blvd. and national blvd, all of which are
heavily travelled day and night. think any of those might contribute
to local pollution?

Typical of GA shills to change the subject or attack the sources.

In article
,
JG wrote:

On Nov 25, 10:33 am, spanky wrote:
On Nov 19, 5:35 pm, JG wrote:

....well, let's see. about 300 feet from the east end of 21 at samo,
there are two gas stations, one of which is probably where they took
the measurements. go about 2000 feet northeast of the runway, and you
have interstate 10, which starts to bottle up most days right around
samo because it ends and/or becomes the PCH in a couple miles; go one
mile straight down the approach path to the runway, and you have one
of the more notorious highway interchanges in california: the 10/405,
where it is not uncommon for cars (and large trucks) to sit idling for
a good bit more than 30 minutes, after having navigated the sepulveda
pass from the getty on down to the interchange itself at about 3 mph.
oh, and by the way: when you're holding for departure at samo, your
exhaust is pointed AWAY from the houses and apartments.

The prevailing wind is from the WEST so all the exhaust crosses BUNDY
and heads into the houses.

bundy drive, ocean park blvd. and national blvd, all of which are
heavily travelled day and night. think any of those might contribute
to local pollution?

Typical of GA shills to change the subject or attack the sources.

Well, if the subject is bull**** and the sources are corrupt -- or at
least highly suspect, they are fair game.

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