why do you soar?

Soaring is the cheapest way of flying an aircraft ever, at least here in
Spain.
It is a sport however you look at it.
I'm far from rich and I own a glider. Lots of my friends own gliders. From
12000 ? you can get a glider. With three partners you can cut down costs a
lot.
It's not as cheap as other activities but man oh man it is rewarding! You
are flying, after all!!!
Lennie, if I spend in one soaring day more than what you earn a month, then
you are in deep deep trouble. Sorry about that.
What I spend during a day, say flying two hours, is:
tow: 22?
flight hour: 2x 13?/hr= 26? (renting ASK-21, I own my glider and won't get
into numbers)
A beer after the flight: 2?
Total for two (or more) absolutely delightful flight hours away from noise
and world and common people: 50?
That's what you earn in a whole month? Wow.

I love soaring because I love flying, and soaring is the most challenging
form. Aside from the manipulation of controls, you make decisions on a
constant basis, and there is the beauty. You get to see a bigger piece of
sky than in a powered plane, bigger windscreen, and feel the flight in its
purest.
The feeling when you get off tow and you know you are on your own is just
wonderful. The controls are light, you see the sun, clouds, mountains... all
is one and you fly with eagles... Incredible.

"Lennie the Lurker" escribió en el mensaje
om...
Pro football is cheaper. And that includes paying the team. Soaring
is not a sport, it's a hobby, and only for those that can afford more
in one day than I spend in one month. Face facts, not your one sided
fantasy. If God had intended man to fly he would have given them more
money.

Tom Seim wrote:
This type of adrenaline rush is what attracts people to our sport.
They don't like to admit (I took some heat when I characterized them
as "adrenaline junkies"), but it is true. We want to subscribe to some
higher calling, such as "the thrill of the flight". But we are
deluding ourselves: we want to expose ourselves to danger and escape -
producing the adrenaline rush. Knowing this can protect us; there is a
limit, if we cross it we WILL DIE.

I was a carrier pilot in the Navy, and I am a (lapsed, for the moment)
glider pilot. I also rock climb as a sport.

Some attractive parts of Navy flying were about cheating death, e.g.,
night carrier landings. But other parts were about the feeling you get
through the ability to move in ways not possible otherwise, kind of like
dancing I guess. My absolute most enjoyable flights were post
maintenance checks on the jet on a blue sky/towering cumulus days, where
once the check was done, I could loop and dive around the clouds,
popping through tunnels in the clouds, loop inverted with the cloud tops
just below my canopy, and even hang at zero airspeed for a second in a
narrow vertical tunnel. None of this had to do with cheating death. It
was all about freedom of movement.

Can't do any of those things in a glider, yet somehow I get the same
sensation of freedom of movement. Especially in wave or ridge. So there
are other attractions, for sure.

When I want adrenaline, I go rock climbing.

At 06:24 07 October 2003, Tango4 wrote:
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
and danced the skies on laughter silvered wings.
.......

High Flight Says most of it for me.

http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/spitfire/hiflight.htm

Ian

Yep.

For me it's about kinetics: balancing weight, motion,
gravity in three dimensions above a three dimensional
world. It is a lot like dancing the waltz but it is
much more slippery than that.

Now, someone is going to correct me and say that it
is mass instead of weight, etc. but engineering terms
do not convey sensations.

I was a carrier pilot in the Navy, and I am a (lapsed, for the moment)
glider pilot. I also rock climb as a sport.

Some attractive parts of Navy flying were about cheating death, e.g.,
night carrier landings. But other parts were about the feeling you get
through the ability to move in ways not possible otherwise, kind of like
dancing I guess. My absolute most enjoyable flights were post
maintenance checks on the jet on a blue sky/towering cumulus days, where
once the check was done, I could loop and dive around the clouds,
popping through tunnels in the clouds, loop inverted with the cloud tops
just below my canopy, and even hang at zero airspeed for a second in a
narrow vertical tunnel. None of this had to do with cheating death. It
was all about freedom of movement.

And you got paid to do this while somebody else paid for the fuel and
maintenance. Ain't fair (I'm jealous)!


Can't do any of those things in a glider, yet somehow I get the same
sensation of freedom of movement. Especially in wave or ridge. So there
are other attractions, for sure.

When I want adrenaline, I go rock climbing.

I gave up rock climbing years ago. And I don't go flying for an
adrenaline rush (which doesn't last very long in any case). Flying for
me is about freedom and testing one's flying abilities. Along the way
you get to meet some great people. This is what keeps people in the
sport however they might have come to it. It is one of the most
beautiful sports in the world, and that is the best way to promote it.
I don't think that blasting recklessly thru uncontrolled airports,
violating FARs in the process, is the way to do it.

Tom

"Jose M. Alvarez" cofamco(a)cofamco.es wrote in message ...

It is a sport however you look at it.

Well, if being grouped with crybabies like the milwaukee brewers and
the packers, and all the other pro teams doesn't bother you.

It's not as cheap as other activities but man oh man it is rewarding! You
are flying, after all!!!

I find that making repair parts for the other retirees, and not having
to charge for it to dump it in my glider is much more rewarding.

Lennie, if I spend in one soaring day more than what you earn a month, then
you are in deep deep trouble. Sorry about that.

You are confusing what I have to pay for my fixed expenses with what I
have left for "fun money". I was spending about $200 to $300 per
flyable weekend at the glider port, plus $300 per month for the
payments on the plane, and no partners in it. But, lets say, $3600
per year for payments, $900 for insurance, $35 per month for tiedown,
$40 for a 3k tow, and an income of $1500 per month, on which I am now
completely comfortable. I don't know how much beer is, I've never
bought any, but rather think I can make a pot of coffee for a lot
less, and rot my brain a lot less at the same time.

However, I do a lot of other things, one of them being music. Two
weeks ago, a friend came to visit, bringing her two daughters. The
six year old sat quietly and listened to me play for most of a half
hour, then got off the chair, putting her arms around me, telling me
"You play the best songs." Find something in a cockpit to compare to
that.

However, I got my first taste of flight in a Cessna 140, in 1957 or
1958. Thought that I really wanted to do it, so when the opportunity
arose, I did it. Then I found that the things that I take as "nothing
special" mean enough that when I had to make a choice between flight
and the others, flight lost, big time. The glider operation just
moved to another airport that's further than I'm willing to drive, so
it's a moot point anyhow.

Ok, I'm not trying to sell soaring to anyone. I've not asked about your
financial details, and could not care less, anyway. If you enjoy more
playing music (wich I understand, as I play guitar as well) then play, and
if you prefer coffe, go ahead...
As this thread is about why do we soar, and you don't anymore, and you don't
even like it, I can't understand why are you posting reasons about how much
you don't like soaring. For my part, I'm with a cast on my left hand (sports
injury, a broken thumb) and will not be able to soar for some weeks... and I
am already missing it badly!!!
Enjoy with your hobbies, we enjoy with ours and everybody is happy.
Incredibly enough, not everybody loves soaring!
If you ain't interested in soaring this may not be the best forum to read.
Just my opinion though.


"Lennie the Lurker" escribió en el mensaje
om...
"Jose M. Alvarez" cofamco(a)cofamco.es wrote in message
...

It is a sport however you look at it.

Well, if being grouped with crybabies like the milwaukee brewers and
the packers, and all the other pro teams doesn't bother you.

It's not as cheap as other activities but man oh man it is rewarding!
You
are flying, after all!!!

I find that making repair parts for the other retirees, and not having
to charge for it to dump it in my glider is much more rewarding.

"Deftly they opened the brain of a child and it was full of
flying dreams" Stanley Kunitz. (Kunitz was the U.S. poet Laureate 2000-2001)

I have always wanted to fly. I always had dreams of flying. Prior to
flying, I would take week long hikes in the mountains. I loved the
altitude, I loved looking out over the valley. Looking down from the
peak, I would see the birds soaring below me; I would wish that I could
be there in the air with the birds.

During my college days, a friend's family had a beach cabin at Kitty
Hawk, N.C. During summer breaks, we would travel to the beach cabin.
Francis Rogallo owned the cabin next door. The friendship that
developed with Rogallo during the 60's further increased my desire to
fly. At the time, his hang glider more closely resembled today's
parasail. The wing had no rigid pipes and was controlled by wing
warping with two control lines. He would tether the hang glider to the
beach and fly with the strength of the ocean winds. He would give
"rides" to non experienced pilots. With the "passenger" strapped in,
Rogallo would 'fly' the glider like a kite from the ground with two long
control lines. It was my desire and dream to fly his glider like a sea
gull over the beach. Unfortunatly, I never got to go for the ride. The
winds necessary were never strong enough during my visits.

Hang gliders start gaining in popularity, but since I lived in flat
Florida, they weren't an option. I took what I thought was the next
logical step; I learned to fly power planes. It was boring. It wasn't
real flying, it was operating a machine. The person who taught me to
fly was also a tow pilot at a commercial glider operation.

I went to the glider operation and took my first glider ride. I was
hooked. I continued with lessons and transitioned to the old 2-32.
Now, this was flying. Although I loved flying gliders, I still had the
nagging feeling in my brain that it wasn't quite close enough. The
glider was still a machine. There had to be something that was still
closer to 'real flying'. The old thoughts of Rogallo's hang glider
lingered in my brain.

In the mid 70's, I called Rogallo and asked him if he could teach me to
fly a hang glider. He turned down by request for two reasons. One was
that he wasn't a flying teacher and the second was that a hang gliding
school had been created on Jockey's Ridge. I went up to Kitty Hawk to
rekindle an old friendship and learn to fly hang gliders. The wind gods
were favorable and I finally learned to fly.

The next step was a flight off of Lookout Mountain, a height of 1200'.
I flew out over the valley and I finally saw a flock of birds flying
below me. The feeling that I felt at that moment is the answer to your
question of, "why do we soar"

There is more to my story and I am back flying sail planes, but the
question has been answered.


JuanM wrote:
I'm working on a video and a print project on soaring, and would appreciate
receiving your collective input. We all love this special sport, and are
always trying to convey its uniqueness to strangers.

I would appreciate if you can write a SHORT paragraph about why soaring (and
soaring competition if that is what you do) is so special to you. Why do you
do it? What does it mean to you? How important is it in your life? You can
post here or email me at . Let me know if I can quote your name
or if you would rather remain anonymous.

I will be posting news on the video project here soon.

Thank you very much!

Juan Mandelbaum
"Z8"

Lennie the Lurker writes
You are confusing what I have to pay for my fixed expenses with what I
have left for "fun money". I was spending about $200 to $300 per
flyable weekend at the glider port, plus $300 per month for the
payments on the plane, and no partners in it. But, lets say, $3600 per
year for payments, $900 for insurance, $35 per month for tiedown, $40
for a 3k tow, and an income of $1500 per month, on which I am now
completely comfortable.

Perhaps our objectives are different. Perhaps geography plays a part.
But I'd say you were paying too much. Certainly far to much for what you
evidently got out of it.

For my part, I'm learning to fly as a member of a local club. I use the
club gliders and the club instructors, all of which come within the
price of my annual membership (£220 pa). Because I took their "Fixed
price to solo" offer (£470 incl annual membership) I don't have to pay
another thing until I either go solo or I need to renew my annual
membership (another £220 next year). I just turn up on a flying day, add
my name to the flying list and help out on the ground as I wait my turn.
Hopefully I'll have gone solo by the time next years subs are due, after
which point it's £6.50 for a winch launch and 26p a minute after the
first 10 minutes (up to a maximum cap, can't recall what). A weekend's
flying once I'm solo shouldn't cost me more than £50 tops. About a third
of what you were paying.

Of course, were I to own my own glider, perhaps the costs would be
higher. Don't know. Haven't bothered to work that out yet. Owning my own
glider, as attractive an ambition as that might be, isn't really
appropriate at the moment.

I suppose the only point I'm trying to make is that your extreme
assessment of the cost of gliding isn't entirely accurate. At least not
accurate enough to qualify as such a sweeping generalisation as the one
you made previously.

I'm not trying to be combative. Could be I'm fortunate in where I live.
But it strikes me that I spend more on running my band, or used to spend
more on fishing, or karate or running my old motorbike than I currently
do (or am likely to in the near future) on gliding. It could cost me
more than I spend on gliding were I to join a local gym. So by
comparison, gliding as a past-time is, if not cheap, can at least be
comparable to any number of other hobbies/sports/activities. Everything
is relevant to budget, but the one thing that really grates me at the
moment is that I didn't realise quite how economic a past-time it could
be. I could have started this years ago, but put off even enquiring
because I was concerned over what I'd assumed would be the high costs.

As for reward, I'm a musician, so I relate deeply to your anecdote
regarding your friend's daughter and "You play the best songs". Music,
especially the performance of it, is a hugely rewarding thing in so many
respects. But I find comparing the rewards of music and the appreciation
of a child (or any type of audience, for that matter) to the rewards to
be found "in a cockpit" to be a bit non-sensical.

Called to make a choice between the two, I'm not sure which way I'd go.
Music, probably, because it's been so much a part of my life and dreams
for so long. But the fact that I'm going gliding tomorrow certainly
isn't going to stop me from turning up and doing the gig tonight. It
won't stop me from helping my son practice his guitar tomorrow night. So
I can have both, and am happier for it. The rewards each give me are
utterly different.

I don't know how much beer is, I've never bought any, but rather think
I can make a pot of coffee for a lot less, and rot my brain a lot less
at the same time.

Sure. But would you have as much fun rotting your brain in coffee as I
do mine in beer?

--
Bill Gribble

in article , Lennie the
Lurker at wrote on 2003/10/14 0:28:

I find that making repair parts for the other retirees, and not having
to charge for it to dump it in my glider is much more rewarding.

So, Lennie, what is it that keeps you here at r.a.s.: you don't seem to
think much of soaring?



Jack

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:43:14 +0100, Bill Gribble
wrote:

Lennie the Lurker writes
You are confusing what I have to pay for my fixed expenses with what I
have left for "fun money". I was spending about $200 to $300 per
flyable weekend at the glider port, plus $300 per month for the
payments on the plane, and no partners in it. But, lets say, $3600 per
year for payments, $900 for insurance, $35 per month for tiedown, $40
for a 3k tow, and an income of $1500 per month, on which I am now
completely comfortable.

Perhaps our objectives are different. Perhaps geography plays a part.
But I'd say you were paying too much. Certainly far to much for what you
evidently got out of it.


Bill,
The way things work in the USA are a lot different from the UK. Many
(most?) clubs don't instruct there - you learn at the local FBO, which
is a commercial operation and will charge around $50 per hour for
glider hire, $40 per hour of instructor time and typically $10 - $12
per thousand feet on tow. Winching is rare across the pond. Mind you,
the clubs, where they exist are pretty reasonable (when I visited
Avenal they wanted $20 per tow and $5 for each glider flight, but in
an older, lower performance club fleet (Schweitzer 2-33, Blanik L-13,
Schweitzer 1-26). Club membership seemed more or less in line with the
UK norm.

Finally, most club and FBO fleets are two seat only, so once you're
solo you really have to stump up for a glider to continue. Gliding
there costs a lot more than it does here.

Looked at in his context, Lennie's costs look to be pretty much in
line with the US norm.

For my part, I'm learning to fly as a member of a local club. I use the
club gliders and the club instructors, all of which come within the
price of my annual membership (£220 pa). Because I took their "Fixed
price to solo" offer (£470 incl annual membership) I don't have to pay
another thing until I either go solo or I need to renew my annual
membership (another £220 next year).

My local club is a bit more expensive than yours, but we have a big
airfield, an all-glass fleet and some nice club single seaters to
support. I too did the fixed price to solo. Its good encouragement to
go fly on a less than optimal day. For the last three years I've been
flying club single seaters as part of a similar scheme (buy a block of
reduced cost air time with associated glider booking rights). For a
variety of reasons I'm planning buy my own glider this winter.

Of course, were I to own my own glider, perhaps the costs would be
higher. Don't know. Haven't bothered to work that out yet. Owning my own
glider, as attractive an ambition as that might be, isn't really
appropriate at the moment.

Agreed. You'll know when its time. As you start to go cross country
you'll find your air time per year rises a lot and the cost of using
club gliders follows. I did about 25 hours total in the season it took
me to solo, but flew about double that in my first solo year, 70 hours
last year and 90 this year.

A very rough calculation indicates that, at somewhere between 70-100
hours flown per year, owning your own glider becomes cheaper than
flying club gliders. This assumes that the private glider is older
glass and includes insurance, running costs and interest on capital
but not depreciation. It also assumes no major repairs or damage. By
older glass I mean something between a Standard Cirrus or Libelle and
an ASW-20. I've used current UK glider prices and interest rates and
my club's booking scheme hire costs.

Of course, if the glider is syndicated between two or three pilots
then the cost per pilot drops, but the glider probably doesn't fly
many more hours during the year.

As an aside to the rest of you, what did I miss here?

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :