Are handheld GPSes becoming a defacto primary nav source?

Ray Andraka writes:

Not if you are cleared direct. If cleared direct, you are expected
to fly direct, not via other navaids. If you can't comply, you
always have the option of saying "unable".

.... at which point ATC gives me a vector towards the VOR (so far, at
least).


All the best,


David

"jeff" wrote in message ...

ok, but wasnt there navaids that you could use to get to the point you
were
cleared to?
If I am told cleared to xxx VOR which is say, 200 nm miles away, I am
assuming I
am cleared to there, so to get there, I will use the navaids available in
my
area. So if you was cleared direct to EMP you would use
KLVS V190 DHT V234
then expect more at EMP or close to it.
thats how I would take it, unless told otherwise, If I had questions I
would
ask.


Well, that's not "direct". "Direct" to a fix means a straight line from
your present position to the fix.

right, I know that, but unless you tell them you have a GPS or RNAV they shouldnt
clear you to a VOR 200 miles away. If the instructions were cleared as filed to xxx
VOR then you would go as filed, I think what would clarify everything would be to
know the exact wording that he was given. Its easy to confuse things if the exact
wording is not known. He said that he put /A on his flight plan, that would only
indicate that he had DME/transponder and not GPS or RNAV


Craig Prouse wrote:

"jeff" wrote:

If I am told cleared to xxx VOR which is say, 200 nm miles away, I am assuming
I
am cleared to there, so to get there, I will use the navaids available in my
area. So if you was cleared direct to EMP you would use
KLVS V190 DHT V234
then expect more at EMP or close to it.
thats how I would take it, unless told otherwise, If I had questions I would
ask.

Jeff, when you're cleared from your present position to a VOR, you're
cleared along the direct course to the VOR, period. You're not cleared to
develop your own route using other navaids or convenient airways of your
choice. That's why you need GPS or other RNAV equipment to fly such a
clearance. [Ref: 91.181 Course to be flown.]

ok so this was offered to you, it was not a clearence.
Somewhere, somehow, I thought I had read it was a clearence you received.

These posts sometimes get morphed into all kinds of different directions and
the answer never actually given if an answer is available.
I have not received any thing like that here, the other day flying out of
phoenix I got vectors all the way to drake then was told to intercept V105
then as filed. You were comming out of Oshkosh right? I am sure they had
their hands full and offered it to you hoping you had the ability to go
direct. I am pretty sure more then half the pilots nowdays use some type of
GPS also -- But I could be wrong



Paul Tomblin wrote:

This week I did several IFR flights, some in IMC and most in VMC. On a
couple of those flights, ATC offered me direct to the next VOR after the
one I was navigating to, well before I could actually pick up the signal.
One time departing Rochester, they told me to go direct Elmira when I was
less than 500 feet off the ground and there are 2000 foot hills between me
and Elmira. So I turned to the approximate direction, and punched "GOTO"
on my handheld GPS, and followed the GPS's HSI until I climbed up high
enough to get a signal.

They don't offer a vector, or say "direct when able", they just say "05X,
go direct East Texas".

It seems to me that they know we can't recieve that VOR, but as long as
we've got the GPS on board, it doesn't matter to them. I guess as far as
legalities go, we're just ded reckoning in the right general direction
until we pick up the VOR.

--
Paul Tomblin , not speaking for anybody
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; give him a freshly-
charged Electric Eel and chances are he won't bother you for anything
ever again. -- Tanuki

That was the whole point of my original post. If I'm over Las Vegas, NM, and
"Cleared Direct EMP" (Emporia, KS), which is some 400 nm away, they are
telling me to go directly there, not "cleared as filed" via LBL, etc., and
even though my flight plan was filed with a /A equipment suffix, they are
assuming I've got RNAV capability.

Mike

In article , jeff wrote:
right, I know that, but unless you tell them you have a GPS or RNAV they
shouldnt
clear you to a VOR 200 miles away. If the instructions were cleared as filed to
xxx
VOR then you would go as filed, I think what would clarify everything would be
to
know the exact wording that he was given. Its easy to confuse things if the
exact
wording is not known. He said that he put /A on his flight plan, that would
only
indicate that he had DME/transponder and not GPS or RNAV


Craig Prouse wrote:

"jeff" wrote:

If I am told cleared to xxx VOR which is say, 200 nm miles away, I am
assuming
I
am cleared to there, so to get there, I will use the navaids available in
my
area. So if you was cleared direct to EMP you would use
KLVS V190 DHT V234
then expect more at EMP or close to it.
thats how I would take it, unless told otherwise, If I had questions I
would
ask.

Jeff, when you're cleared from your present position to a VOR, you're
cleared along the direct course to the VOR, period. You're not cleared to
develop your own route using other navaids or convenient airways of your
choice. That's why you need GPS or other RNAV equipment to fly such a
clearance. [Ref: 91.181 Course to be flown.]

In a previous article, jeff said:
ok so this was offered to you, it was not a clearence.
Somewhere, somehow, I thought I had read it was a clearence you received.

They didn't say "Go direct if able" or anything that would make me think
it was an offer, they said "Go direct ETX". (Or maybe it was "cleared
direct ETX")

then as filed. You were comming out of Oshkosh right? I am sure they had

Nope, I was leaving Rochester NY on a nice mostly VFR Sunday afternoon.


--
Paul Tomblin , not speaking for anybody
Either way, it'll remind the clued that there's only one letter
difference between 'turkey' and 'turnkey'.
-- Mike Andrews

are they telling you to go there or asking you if you would like direct?
you said they asked you if you would like that option in your first post.


Mike Adams wrote:

That was the whole point of my original post. If I'm over Las Vegas, NM, and
"Cleared Direct EMP" (Emporia, KS), which is some 400 nm away, they are
telling me to go directly there, not "cleared as filed" via LBL, etc., and
even though my flight plan was filed with a /A equipment suffix, they are
assuming I've got RNAV capability.

Mike

In article , jeff wrote:
right, I know that, but unless you tell them you have a GPS or RNAV they
shouldnt
clear you to a VOR 200 miles away. If the instructions were cleared as filed to
xxx
VOR then you would go as filed, I think what would clarify everything would be
to
know the exact wording that he was given. Its easy to confuse things if the
exact
wording is not known. He said that he put /A on his flight plan, that would
only
indicate that he had DME/transponder and not GPS or RNAV


Craig Prouse wrote:

"jeff" wrote:

If I am told cleared to xxx VOR which is say, 200 nm miles away, I am
assuming
I
am cleared to there, so to get there, I will use the navaids available in
my
area. So if you was cleared direct to EMP you would use
KLVS V190 DHT V234
then expect more at EMP or close to it.
thats how I would take it, unless told otherwise, If I had questions I
would
ask.

Jeff, when you're cleared from your present position to a VOR, you're
cleared along the direct course to the VOR, period. You're not cleared to
develop your own route using other navaids or convenient airways of your
choice. That's why you need GPS or other RNAV equipment to fly such a
clearance. [Ref: 91.181 Course to be flown.]

No, it wasn't phrased as an offer, it was just "cleared direct EMP". My
original post was as follows:

I had two similar recent experiences on this year's trip to Oshkosh that made
Are handheld GPSes becoming a defacto primary nav source?
a few of the legs just for the experience. On the leg from LVS to OJC, I
checked in with center after takeoff, and was immediately cleared direct
Newsgroups
had some other navigation capability. (We did.)


In article , jeff wrote:
are they telling you to go there or asking you if you would like direct?
you said they asked you if you would like that option in your first post.


Mike Adams wrote:

That was the whole point of my original post. If I'm over Las Vegas, NM, and
"Cleared Direct EMP" (Emporia, KS), which is some 400 nm away, they are
telling me to go directly there, not "cleared as filed" via LBL, etc., and
even though my flight plan was filed with a /A equipment suffix, they are
assuming I've got RNAV capability.

Mike

Your instructor is wrong, there's nothing that prohibits filing an IFR
direct route regardless of the status of your nav equipment. Whether or not
the controller can clear you on such a route depends upon radar coverage,
but if he can clear you direct once you're airborne he can also clear you
direct when you're still on the ground.

On the first day private flying was permitted after 9-11, I filed
direct from Rutland VT to Bloomsburg PA , about 250 miles, with "VFR
GPS in "remarks," and got it! I was quite surprised, but perhaps the
fact that there was extremely little traffic that day had something to
do with it.

But for many years, before GPS or even RNAV, I filed direct from UNV
(central PA) to MAPEL (about 100 miles) direct Dulles, and usually got
it.

I was never asked how I could do it. (I had noticed that the radial
out of IAD (Dulles) that went through MAPEL also went through UNV.)

Direct LISON Direct DCA also worked, for similar reason.

vince norris

Oops, the cut and paste from my earlier message didn't come out right. It's
corrected below:

"Mike Adams" wrote in message
news:XKv6b.29591$S_.20412@fed1read01...
No, it wasn't phrased as an offer, it was just "cleared direct EMP". My
original post was as follows:

I had two similar recent experiences on this year's trip to Oshkosh that
made
me think the same thing. With a new instrument rating, I was trying to file
on
a few of the legs just for the experience. On the leg from LVS to OJC, I
checked in with center after takeoff, and was immediately cleared direct
EMP. Now this is 450 NM, and I had filed /A, so they were obviously assuming
I
had some other navigation capability. (We did.)

In article , jeff wrote:
are they telling you to go there or asking you if you would like direct?
you said they asked you if you would like that option in your first post.


Mike Adams wrote:

That was the whole point of my original post. If I'm over Las Vegas,
NM, and
"Cleared Direct EMP" (Emporia, KS), which is some 400 nm away, they are
telling me to go directly there, not "cleared as filed" via LBL, etc.,
and
even though my flight plan was filed with a /A equipment suffix, they
are
assuming I've got RNAV capability.

Mike