Missed approach procedure...

There are no climb gradients on FAA missed approaches for public
procedures except for Burbank, California. They are evaluated for a 40:1
clear surface from (typcially) 250 feet below MDA to not less than 1,000
feet below the final missed approach altitude. Hopefully, you can climb a
lot better than 40:1 (152 feet per n.m.)

If no fix is specified you turn when you reach any specified intermediate
turning altitude. It's protected for the worst climber (152 feet per
mile) to an F-18. If there is a turn fix specified, you keep climbing
(assuming you're out climbing a 40:1 slope) but you don't turn until the
specified fix.

With the KCNO ILS you turn as soon as you get to 1,400 feet assuming you
are past the MAP. If you miss early you don't turn until the MAP but you
can keep climbing towards 4,000 feet. The missed approach hold is shown
in the plan view as right turns on the PDZ 078 radial. If you're a slow
climber and you reach PDZ below 4,000 feet you continue the climb in the
hold to 4,000.

At KCRQ you climb on heading 245 until you intercept the Oceanside 145
radial (325 inbound). Whether you reach 3,000 before or after
intercepting the 145 radial is irrelevant, you intercept the radial at
3,000 level, or climbing to 3,000.

wrote:

Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.

Looking at the plate missed seems to be about 4 mi from PDZ.
DH is 836 so at 200ft /mi 1400 gets you to 6 mi from PDZ
Assume that the turn gives you another 200 ft thats 1600 and 6 miles
at 200 per nm that gets you to PDZ and 2800.

The missed specifies 4000

So what do you do hold at PDZ and climb to 4000?

Again in this specific case it looks like that would be safe.

ArtP wrote:

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:45:57 -0800, wrote:

Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.

That is wrong.

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:17:04 -0800, wrote:

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.

That is wrong.

You are right. I looked at the plate again and the description
disagrees with the little symbols in the profile. The descriptions has
an "and" in it while the symbols show two separate operations. In
other plates (RWI VOR/DME 22) a climb and an interception is shown in
a single symbol rather than two separate ones.

You are right. I looked at the plate again and the description
disagrees with the little symbols in the profile. The descriptions has
an "and" in it while the symbols show two separate operations. In
other plates (RWI VOR/DME 22) a climb and an interception is shown in
a single symbol rather than two separate ones.

That was my confusion,
I was looking at the missed symbols, trying to decide what to do if
you are not at 3000 before the radial.

"ArtP" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:17:04 -0800, wrote:

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.

That is wrong.

You are right. I looked at the plate again and the description
disagrees with the little symbols in the profile. The descriptions has
an "and" in it while the symbols show two separate operations. In
other plates (RWI VOR/DME 22) a climb and an interception is shown in
a single symbol rather than two separate ones.

There is no disagreement from my point of view. The first symbol in both
cases gives the altitude to climb to and the initial route. Altitude, route.
I can't think of any missed that has very tricky routes, although MYV ILS 14
is a local approach to me and is the only one that's given me fits in
training since you have two radials to track to define the route to the hold
and the intercept you choose really defines what the needles do. Have fun:
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...t/MYV_ir14.pdf

Hint, you want your indicators set so you're inbound on the ILS R-085 (ie
set OBS to 265) and outbound SAC R-329 (ie OBS to 329) to not get confused
and remember which one you want to end up on. Note the briefing boxes
really don't ever give you a flyable clearance, they really are meant to be
an aid to briefing. The text properly defines the published missed.

cheers
-Greg
PP ASEL IA

ArtP wrote:

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:17:04 -0800, wrote:

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.

That is wrong.

You are right. I looked at the plate again and the description
disagrees with the little symbols in the profile. The descriptions has
an "and" in it while the symbols show two separate operations. In
other plates (RWI VOR/DME 22) a climb and an interception is shown in
a single symbol rather than two separate ones.

I've got both the Jepp and NACO charts for these two IAPs in hand. The
problem is that you were sandbagged by incorrect NACO symbology. Jeppesen
has the symbology correct: Jepp shows an arrow to 3000', then in the next
box it says 245 heading, then between that box and the next box the word
"and" flows across, and that next box says OCN 115.3 R-145. NACO, as you
know, leads you down the primrose path.

Having said that, the symbols are subserviant to the written missed approach
text. The text is regulatory; the symbols are not. The chart makers have to
interpret the text to draft the symbology.

Moral to the story: understand the text first and foremost, then reconcile it
with the briefing symbology. If they agree, the symbology is then adequate
to use during the "heat of the battle," in lieu of the text.

"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message thlink.net...

I can't think of any missed that has very tricky routes

Check this one out.

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...st/SZT_ldA.pdf

The missed approach instructions read:

"MISSED APPROACH: Climb to 8000 to I-RPO 10 DME, then climbing right
turn via SZT bearing 030 degrees to SZT NDB, then via SZT bearing 181
degrees and COE R-359 to COE VOR/DME and hold." (And of course it's a
parallel entry!)

-Ryan

When we build a missed approach procedure, we determine where we want
the missed approach to go. If that route encounters an obstacle, then we
have to create a "climb to" altitude before the turn can be made toward
the obstacle. In that example, it would be "Climb via 270 heading to
2000, then right climbing turn to 4000 direct XXX VOR and hold.

If obstacles weren't a factor, but we had a specific route designed to
avoid obstacles or airspace, then it would read "Climb to 4000 via 270
heading and XXX VOR R-210 to XXX VOR and hold". In this case, you
wouldn't wait until reaching 4000 to turn; you would fly a heading until
the specified radial, turn to that radial, and climb while on the route,
reaching 4000 either while on the heading or on the specified radial,
depending on aircraft performance.

For the example of reaching the missed approach holding pattern before
reaching the specified altitude, you would perform a climb in hold at
the holding fix until reaching the specified altitude or received a
clearance beyond the fix. Incidentally, we evaluate the climb based on
200' per NM, and if that climb doesn't reach the specified altitude by
the time you get to the fix, we're required to develop a "climb in hold"
pattern at the holding fix. This is transparent to the pilot, but
requires the procedure specialist to use a 310 knot holding pattern
template to search for obstacles, instead of the normal GA pattern of
200 or 230 knots. This gives extra obstacle protection during your climb.

wrote:
Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.


Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.

Looking at the plate missed seems to be about 4 mi from PDZ.
DH is 836 so at 200ft /mi 1400 gets you to 6 mi from PDZ
Assume that the turn gives you another 200 ft thats 1600 and 6 miles
at 200 per nm that gets you to PDZ and 2800.

The missed specifies 4000

So what do you do hold at PDZ and climb to 4000?

Again in this specific case it looks like that would be safe.

"Ryan Ferguson" wrote in message
m...
"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message
thlink.net...

I can't think of any missed that has very tricky routes

Check this one out.

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...st/SZT_ldA.pdf

The missed approach instructions read:

"MISSED APPROACH: Climb to 8000 to I-RPO 10 DME, then climbing right
turn via SZT bearing 030 degrees to SZT NDB, then via SZT bearing 181
degrees and COE R-359 to COE VOR/DME and hold." (And of course it's a
parallel entry!)

-Ryan

Yes, a very interesting missed approach procedure. And, to tie to the other
part of the thread: if you haven't gotten to 8000 by the time you get to
I-RPO, what should you do? (By my reckoning it takes 403 ft/nm climb to get
there.)

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

John Clonts wrote:

"Ryan Ferguson" wrote in message
m...
"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message
thlink.net...

I can't think of any missed that has very tricky routes

Check this one out.

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...st/SZT_ldA.pdf

The missed approach instructions read:

"MISSED APPROACH: Climb to 8000 to I-RPO 10 DME, then climbing right
turn via SZT bearing 030 degrees to SZT NDB, then via SZT bearing 181
degrees and COE R-359 to COE VOR/DME and hold." (And of course it's a
parallel entry!)

-Ryan

Yes, a very interesting missed approach procedure. And, to tie to the other
part of the thread: if you haven't gotten to 8000 by the time you get to
I-RPO, what should you do? (By my reckoning it takes 403 ft/nm climb to get
there.)

You continue the climb in the holding pattern.