Flying under Class B

What is the minimum legal distance (altitude) to fly VFR under a Class B
"wedding cake"? CLE has a 1900 ft floor at the north side by Lake Erie and I
have flown at 1800 to go around CLE. I was not talking to CLE so I don't know
if they objected. Today I was coming around CLE decending IFR. When in VMS I
cancelled IFR and remained on squak for advisories. The controller wanted me
at 3000 when under a 4000 ft designated altitude. Was he just being safe for
his own good or is 1000 ft suggested as the minimum buffer? I know, I should
have ask him but the frequency was pretty busy.

Chuck

PaulaJay1 wrote:

What is the minimum legal distance (altitude) to fly VFR under a Class B
"wedding cake"?

Whatever the floor is.

CLE has a 1900 ft floor at the north side by Lake Erie and I
have flown at 1800 to go around CLE.

You could fly it at 1900. Hit a bump and go to 1901, however, you're illegal, but the
controller won't know it. The typical mode-C transponder reports altitude in 100'
increments and changes readings at about the 50' level; that is, at 1949', your
transponder should report 1900' and at 1950' it should report 2000'.

Dunno about you, but my encoder isn't that accurate. Still, it won't be precise
enough to get me busted at 1' over the floor.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

If you are VFR, you can be within 1 foot of that space, and be legal. AFAIK.

However, if you are using radar services, they will often fly you at an
altitude for their own reasons, whatever they may be (always good reasons,
but varying in importance). I have had controllers argue with me over this,
so I know it varies around the country. The rules and regs are the same, but
geography, weather, and habit have pretty large influences on how they are
applied.

You can call them and get an answer why they do that in your area if you
really want to know. Used to be you could go tour the facility and sit with
a controller to learn, but they supposedly stopped doing that. I haven't
sat with a controller in a dozen years, so I suspect things have changed
alot and would like to do it again.

Legally, you could have told them you wanted another altitude, since you
were VFR, like 3500, but legally, he could cancel you since you canceled IFR
as well. So the rules are one thing, and how they are applied can vary.

Mostly, I go along because I figure it makes a big difference to them, and
a little one to me. Whenever I have asked for a different altitude (due to
obscuration or turbulence, or heat), I usually hear "cleared VFR under 4000
feet" - or whatever applies.

Once though, I got a nice request/advice to stay where assigned due to
traffic. I was happy to bump along at 1500 rather than try to stay cooler
and smoother if it meant avoiding an unwanted meeting with a regional jet


"PaulaJay1" wrote in message
...
What is the minimum legal distance (altitude) to fly VFR under a Class B
"wedding cake"? CLE has a 1900 ft floor at the north side by Lake Erie
and I
have flown at 1800 to go around CLE. I was not talking to CLE so I don't
know
if they objected. Today I was coming around CLE decending IFR. When in
VMS I
cancelled IFR and remained on squak for advisories. The controller wanted
me
at 3000 when under a 4000 ft designated altitude. Was he just being safe
for
his own good or is 1000 ft suggested as the minimum buffer? I know, I
should
have ask him but the frequency was pretty busy.

Chuck

"PaulaJay1" wrote in message
...

What is the minimum legal distance (altitude) to fly VFR under a Class B
"wedding cake"?


No such mimimum distance exists.



CLE has a 1900 ft floor at the north side by Lake Erie and I have
flown at 1800 to go around CLE. I was not talking to CLE so I
don't know if they objected.


There's nothing for them to object to.



Today I was coming around CLE decending IFR. When in VMS I
cancelled IFR and remained on squak for advisories. The controller
wanted me at 3000 when under a 4000 ft designated altitude. Was he
just being safe for his own good or is 1000 ft suggested as the minimum
buffer?


Outside of Class B airspace he has no responsibility for separation and
cannot require VFR aircraft to operate at any particular altitude. Of
course, other regulations can come into play here, such as VFR cruising
altitudes.

"Dude" wrote in message
...

However, if you are using radar services, they will often fly you at an
altitude for their own reasons, whatever they may be (always good reasons,
but varying in importance). I have had controllers argue with me over
this,
so I know it varies around the country. The rules and regs are the same,
but
geography, weather, and habit have pretty large influences on how they are
applied.


It doesn't vary at all. If you're outside of the Class B airspace ATC has
no authority to assign altitudes to VFR aircraft.

(PaulaJay1) wrote:
What is the minimum legal distance (altitude) to fly VFR under a Class B
"wedding cake"? CLE has a 1900 ft floor at the north side by Lake Erie and I
have flown at 1800 to go around CLE.

Nothing wrong with that from a legal standpoint.

Today I was coming around CLE decending IFR. When in VMS I
cancelled IFR and remained on squak for advisories. The controller wanted me
at 3000 when under a 4000 ft designated altitude.

If you're VFR, you decide what altitude to fly at. I can't see any
reason why flying at 3500 below at 4000 foot floor would be
inappropriate.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Dude" wrote in message
...

However, if you are using radar services, they will often fly you at an
altitude for their own reasons, whatever they may be (always good reasons,
but varying in importance). I have had controllers argue with me over
this,
so I know it varies around the country. The rules and regs are the same,
but
geography, weather, and habit have pretty large influences on how they are
applied.



It doesn't vary at all. If you're outside of the Class B airspace ATC has
no authority to assign altitudes to VFR aircraft.


Nor any obligation to continue radar services to said VFR aircraft.

Dave

"Dave S" wrote in message
link.net...

It doesn't vary at all. If you're outside of the Class B airspace ATC
has no authority to assign altitudes to VFR aircraft.

Nor any obligation to continue radar services to said VFR aircraft.


Actually, there is.


FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-1. ATC SERVICE

The primary purpose of the ATC system is to prevent a collision
between aircraft operating in the system and to organize and expedite the
flow of traffic. In addition to its primary function, the ATC system has the
capability to provide (with certain limitations) additional services. The
ability to provide additional services is limited by many factors, such as
the volume of traffic, frequency congestion, quality of radar, controller
workload, higher priority duties, and the pure physical inability to scan
and detect those situations that fall in this category. It is recognized
that these services cannot be provided in cases in which the provision of
services is precluded by the above factors. Consistent with the
aforementioned conditions, controllers shall provide additional service
procedures to the extent permitted by higher priority duties and other
circumstances. The provision of additional services is not optional on the
part of the controller, but rather is required when the work situation
permits. Provide air traffic control service in accordance with the
procedures and minima in this order except when:

a. A deviation is necessary to conform with ICAO Documents, National
Rules of the Air, or special agreements where the U.S. provides air traffic
control service in airspace outside the U.S. and its possessions or:

NOTE-
Pilots are required to abide by CFRs or other applicable regulations
regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order.

b. Other procedures/minima are prescribed in a letter of agreement,
FAA directive, or a military document, or:

NOTE-
These procedures may include altitude reservations, air refueling,
fighter interceptor operations, law enforcement, etc.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Procedural Letters of Agreement, Para 1-1-8.

c. A deviation is necessary to assist an aircraft when an emergency
has been declared.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Safety Alert, Para 2-1-6.
FAAO 7110.65, Emergencies, Chapter 10.
FAAO 7110.65, Merging Target Procedures, Para 5-1-8.

Hi,

CLE has a 1900 ft floor at the north side by Lake Erie and I
have flown at 1800 to go around CLE.

You could fly it at 1900. Hit a bump and go to 1901, however, you're
illegal, but the
controller won't know it.

Isn't the stated altitude included in class B? So, nitpicking, you'd have to
fly at 1899 to be legal, unless there's this "+" sign on the chart...

Happy flying,
Patrick

There can be a lot of VFR traffic cruising around under the B space. It's
a good idea to just talk to ATC and get their help.


"PaulaJay1" wrote in message
...
What is the minimum legal distance (altitude) to fly VFR under a Class B
"wedding cake"? CLE has a 1900 ft floor at the north side by Lake Erie
and I
have flown at 1800 to go around CLE. I was not talking to CLE so I don't
know
if they objected. Today I was coming around CLE decending IFR. When in
VMS I
cancelled IFR and remained on squak for advisories. The controller wanted
me
at 3000 when under a 4000 ft designated altitude. Was he just being safe
for
his own good or is 1000 ft suggested as the minimum buffer? I know, I
should
have ask him but the frequency was pretty busy.

Chuck