Flying under Class B

You didn't mention, but I presume you were not flying in the class bravo at
the time? That is weird.

But this raises a question about which I keep forgetting. I was once IFRing
into Linden - an uncontrolled airport right next to Newark - in VMC. ATC
wanted me to cancel as early as possible of course, and I was perfectly
willing to do so. I just wanted to be below the class B first, but - at
least where I was - the floor was below ATC's MVA. So I cancelled, but I
felt a little odd being in class B having never received explicit clearance
into it.

Silly of me?

You were on a clearance when you entered Class B. That would be good enough for me.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Dude" wrote in message
...

However, if you are using radar services, they will often fly you at an
altitude for their own reasons, whatever they may be (always good
reasons,
but varying in importance). I have had controllers argue with me over
this,
so I know it varies around the country. The rules and regs are the same,
but
geography, weather, and habit have pretty large influences on how they
are
applied.


It doesn't vary at all. If you're outside of the Class B airspace ATC has
no authority to assign altitudes to VFR aircraft.



Steve,

We can argue rules all day long, but the way things are done can make the
results of whats done inside the rules seem strangely dissimilar in the
cockpit.

Whether they have authority or not at all, doesn't matter one wit. They do
it, and you can respond with compliance or not (since they do not have
authority, you can choose to disregard).

I have given you a real life, and common, example of what happens in my
area. If you choose to not believe me, that is fine. Lots of people fly
down the coast of Florida outside of the class B. Am I the only one who
ever gets an assignment?

So long as they are not directing you to do something unsafe, or hard on the
equipment or passengers, or otherwise an extreme hassle - why not just go
along?

Lets say he is not a sharp troop. Why make his job harder. While you are
giving the guy fits, someone else is trying to get a clearance or advice.
Keep it up, and they will just expand the class B, because they NEED to
control that space.

If we go along, we can delay or eliminate the need to expand class B areas.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Yup, and receiving an altitude assignment from a controller that hasn't
the
authority to issue it is an indication that you're not working with a
sharp
troop.


This is one of my pet peeves about the folks at NY Tracon. They've got
this strange habit of telling VFR flights inbound to HPN to "descend to
pattern altitude". It used to only happen to me once in a while, but
lately it seems to have become SOP.

It's more than just a polite suggestion, too. I've had controllers tell
me that I'm not descending fast enough, and that they "need me" to
descend.


Again, a sign that you're not working with a sharp troop.



I once said "unable" when a controller tried to do this to me
15 miles out at night and ended up with an invitation to call them when
I got on the ground. Said phone call resulted in a verbal reaming out
by the supervisor for refusing to follow instructions.


Had it been me it would have been the supervisor that would have received
the verbal reaming out.



A written complaint from me to the tracon resulted in a letter informing
me that I must obey all controller's instructions.


But not supported by any documentation, of course.

Peter R. wrote:
Roy Smith ) wrote:

It's more than just a polite suggestion, too. I've had controllers tell
me that I'm not descending fast enough, and that they "need me" to
descend. I once said "unable" when a controller tried to do this to me
15 miles out at night and ended up with an invitation to call them when
I got on the ground. Said phone call resulted in a verbal reaming out
by the supervisor for refusing to follow instructions.

A written complaint from me to the tracon resulted in a letter informing
me that I must obey all controller's instructions.

Shoulda had the supervisor tell you what section of the Federal Aviation
Regulation supports his assertion that ATC control VFR aircraft outside
of B or C airspace.

That was in the letter I wrote to complain. The (written) response
was "you have to follow all instructions the controller gives you".

Roy Smith ) wrote:

That was in the letter I wrote to complain. The (written) response
was "you have to follow all instructions the controller gives you".

To which you should have returned: "What regulation states that a VFR
aircraft in class E (which I presume you were in) airspace is required
to follow all instructions given by the controller?

--
Peter

In article ,
Peter R. wrote:
Roy Smith ) wrote:

That was in the letter I wrote to complain. The (written) response
was "you have to follow all instructions the controller gives you".

To which you should have returned: "What regulation states that a VFR
aircraft in class E (which I presume you were in) airspace is required
to follow all instructions given by the controller?

Well, I look at it this way. I may have been stupid enough to have
gotten into a ****ing contest with the FAA in the first place, but at
least I was smart enough to quit while I still had some dry clothes
on.

"Dude" wrote in message
...

It doesn't vary at all. If you're outside of the Class B airspace ATC
has
no authority to assign altitudes to VFR aircraft.



Steve,

We can argue rules all day long, but the way things are done can make the
results of whats done inside the rules seem strangely dissimilar in the
cockpit.

Whether they have authority or not at all, doesn't matter one wit. They
do
it, and you can respond with compliance or not (since they do not have
authority, you can choose to disregard).

I have given you a real life, and common, example of what happens in my
area. If you choose to not believe me, that is fine. Lots of people fly
down the coast of Florida outside of the class B. Am I the only one who
ever gets an assignment?


I didn't say it wasn't done, I said they don't have the authority to do it.

"Dude" wrote in message
...

So long as they are not directing you to do something unsafe, or hard on
the
equipment or passengers, or otherwise an extreme hassle - why not just go
along?


For what purpose?



Lets say he is not a sharp troop. Why make his job harder.


But it doesn't make his job harder.



While you are
giving the guy fits, someone else is trying to get a clearance or advice.


It's not me that's giving him fits, it's his misunderstang of procedures
that's giving him fits.



Keep it up, and they will just expand the class B, because they NEED to
control that space.


Why do they NEED to control it?



If we go along, we can delay or eliminate the need to expand class B
areas.


That's got nothing to do with it.

"Dave S" wrote in message
. net...

The controller has the authority to arbitrarily decide he does not have
the ability to provide VFR services due to workload constraints.


No he doesn't. There has to actually be workload constraints. If there
isn't he must provide the service.