Safety Pilot restrictions by the Insurance Company?

On 02/24/07 23:46, tscottme wrote:
"Jose" wrote in message
...
By allowing non-club members to act as safety pilot in club aircraft
isn't that a big loophole to allow pilots of unknown qualification access
to club aircraft?

Uh... "access to club aircraft"? Like the kind of access my
non-club-member passengers have? Or my non-club-member-but-licensed-pilot
passengers have? The club member remains PIC and remains resposible for
the safety of the flight.

What kind of "access" are you talking about?

Without the restriction being discussed how does the club/insurance company
control which pilots are risking the airplane? If club members are required
to use safety pilots that are approved by the club, by virtue of being club
members, there is some minimum of safety pilot qualification assured.
Without the rule a club member can designate any warm body sitting in the
right seat as safety pilot.

First, the safety pilot must meet the FAA requirements of a safety pilot
or he's not a safety pilot - he's just a passenger.

Second, the club member PIC is fully responsible for the flight. What is
being risked by a qualified pilot acting as safety pilot?


The rule may not prevent unauthorized use any more than a "no flight
instructing in aircraft rented by ABC Aviation without prior approval" but
the rule seems just as reasonable. The rule is a bright line which informs
club members specifically about an acitivity of increased risk. While
pilots and insurance companies have been arguing for years about "who's in
control" and PIC, etc. The rule seems to head off the ambiguity by
requiring both pilots to be approved by virtue of membership.

On 02/24/07 20:15, Robert M. Gary wrote:
On Feb 24, 11:37 am, Mark Hansen wrote:
I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the
pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where
this is necessary.

However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance
company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also
be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting
as PIC.

Insurance companies don't seem to care much about PIC. They determine
who is "pilot flying" (term used in most policies) mostly by what seat
you are in. However, the Chief Pilot is free to add any rules he
wants, he's kinda the boss. You certainly would never want to allow a
non-club member on the controls because the insurance co will get you
for that if there is an accident, regardless of PIC.

-Robert


Fair enough, Robert. However, what has that got to do with my specific
case? As I've said, the club member is acting as PIC. The safety pilot
is *not* flying the airplane.

Also, the Chief Pilot claims this restriction comes from the insurance
company, so (unless he's lying) this isn't a case of the Chief Pilot
making additional restrictions.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:
Again ... the safety pilot is not acting as pilot in command. He is acting
as safety pilot only. He is little more than a passenger.

That's one way to look at it. Another perspective is that he's a required
crew member.

It's not entirely unreasonable for the insurance company (or the club) to
mandate that all required crew are club members.

Incidentally, the club requires that the pilot acting as PIC be a club
member, so that rules out the ability for the safety pilot to act as
PIC (even if they allowed non-club members to be safety pilot).

From an insurance and a risk management perspective, that sounds to me
like splitting hairs. It doesn't particularly make the flight safer for
the pilot under the hood to always be PIC, does it?

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

whether it is the insurance company or the club that requires it, it sees to
make sense.


"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the
pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where
this is necessary.

However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance
company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also
be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting
as PIC.

I was told that the reason behind this is that in the event of an
accident/incident, the insurance company doesn't want anyone who
was acting as a required crew member to be a non club member.

Is this normal for an insurance restriction like this? It seems to
me that this is just making it harder for the IR pilot to practice.

Thanks,

On Feb 25, 11:53 am, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 02/24/07 20:15, Robert M. Gary wrote:





On Feb 24, 11:37 am, Mark Hansen wrote:
I belong to a flying club. Of the many club rules, one is that the
pilot acting as PIC must be a club member. I can certainly see where
this is necessary.

However, the Chief Pilot for the club claims that the insurance
company is requiring that a safety pilot for IFR practice must also
be a club member, even when the safety pilot will *not* be acting
as PIC.

Insurance companies don't seem to care much about PIC. They determine
who is "pilot flying" (term used in most policies) mostly by what seat
you are in. However, the Chief Pilot is free to add any rules he
wants, he's kinda the boss. You certainly would never want to allow a
non-club member on the controls because the insurance co will get you
for that if there is an accident, regardless of PIC.

-Robert

Fair enough, Robert. However, what has that got to do with my specific
case? As I've said, the club member is acting as PIC. The safety pilot
is *not* flying the airplane.

Also, the Chief Pilot claims this restriction comes from the insurance
company, so (unless he's lying) this isn't a case of the Chief Pilot
making additional restrictions.

I think my point is that it doesn't make much difference if its an
insurance rule or the belief of the chief pilot. Either case is just
as binding. I know that some FBOs don't allow non-members to be safety
pilots because they are concerned that the safety pilot may end up
doing some flying. At least that is what they say, who knows. Maybe
they want the dues from the other guy. In fact, FBOs always seem
uncomfortable when a pilot, non-member is in their planes.

-Robert