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#1
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How long before /G required for IFR?
Just read in aopa weekly mail today that the FAA is considering shutting
down the BDL (Bradley, Hartford CT) and PVD (Providence RI) VORs. These are not exactly podunk navaids. Both are located at Class C fields with substantial airline traffic (not just RJs either) and they support a decent number of airways and approaches. To be fair, VORs are not exactly in short supply in the Northeast, so this won't have a devastating effect, though it will make outages more critical. I fly a 172N and with 2 NAV/COMs, ADF, and an M1 Loran I can get around this part of the country pretty well. Other than getting DME capability there hasn't been a pressing reason to add an IFR GPS to a $40,000 plane. But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement? Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions ("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS, so I suppose us non-golf folks are becoming a rare species. How long before we're extinct? Best, -cwk. |
#2
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But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement?
IMO, more than 5 years but less than 15. Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions ("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS Well, they don't really. I bet you can do that with the M1 LORAN. Or you could if it didn't come with a placard limiting it to VFR use only. A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation - NOT an advisory circular or AIM). Since almost everyone who flies IFR has at least a handheld GPS, why wouldn't ATC take advantage of this? The real issue is when will approach GPS become a necessity pracitcal necessity? I suspect that as VOR's and NDB's are decomissioned, more and more airports will have nothing but GPS. The big airports will always have ILS, and those will become our only legal alternates, but for GA IFR flying, GPS will become a necessity. Michael |
#3
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"Michael" wrote in message ups.com... But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement? IMO, more than 5 years but less than 15. Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions ("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS Well, they don't really. I bet you can do that with the M1 LORAN. Or you could if it didn't come with a placard limiting it to VFR use only. A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation - NOT an advisory circular or AIM). Since almost everyone who flies IFR has at least a handheld GPS, why wouldn't ATC take advantage of this? The real issue is when will approach GPS become a necessity pracitcal necessity? I suspect that as VOR's and NDB's are decomissioned, more and more airports will have nothing but GPS. The big airports will always have ILS, and those will become our only legal alternates, but for GA IFR flying, GPS will become a necessity. Michael Go fly in the plains states most the GA airports have GPS only IFR approach and not many VOR's or many other nav aid's and the Vor's that are our in Eastern MT And Western ND well if you have 1,500' cellings good luck picking them up. |
#4
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Michael wrote: But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement? IMO, more than 5 years but less than 15. Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions ("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS Well, they don't really. I bet you can do that with the M1 LORAN. Or you could if it didn't come with a placard limiting it to VFR use only. A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation - NOT an advisory circular or AIM). Try 91.205 (d) (2) for starters: d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required: (2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used. Think non-radar operations, where the controller isn't going to play "Frick and Frack" direct-to games with you. Failure to comply with 91.205 can rapidly lead to 91.3, and the FAA attorneys win every time. |
#5
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wrote in message ... Try 91.205 (d) (2) for starters: d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required: (2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used. That states what equipment is required to be aboard, it does not restrict the use of equipment not required to be aboard. Think non-radar operations, where the controller isn't going to play "Frick and Frack" direct-to games with you. Failure to comply with 91.205 can rapidly lead to 91.3, and the FAA attorneys win every time. Nobody suggested IFR operations without the required equipment. |
#6
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: wrote in message ... Try 91.205 (d) (2) for starters: d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required: (2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used. That states what equipment is required to be aboard, it does not restrict the use of equipment not required to be aboard. Think non-radar operations, where the controller isn't going to play "Frick and Frack" direct-to games with you. Failure to comply with 91.205 can rapidly lead to 91.3, and the FAA attorneys win every time. Nobody suggested IFR operations without the required equipment. Are you suggesting Michael is a nobody? He stated: A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation - NOT an advisory circular or AIM). This was stated in the context of a thread asking the somewhat rhetorical question "Will /G become mandatory because of the movement to begin to shut down VOR stations. Since Michael proposed using a portable GPS based on a incorrect presmise that it has no placard that restricts it to VFR (not true in substance in that the operating material suppied with the units state that), he was clearing challenging operating in an area without adequate VOR stations for non-radar IFR operations. |
#7
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wrote in message ... Are you suggesting Michael is a nobody? He stated: A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation - NOT an advisory circular or AIM). This was stated in the context of a thread asking the somewhat rhetorical question "Will /G become mandatory because of the movement to begin to shut down VOR stations. Since Michael proposed using a portable GPS based on a incorrect presmise that it has no placard that restricts it to VFR (not true in substance in that the operating material suppied with the units state that), he was clearing challenging operating in an area without adequate VOR stations for non-radar IFR operations. Nobody suggested IFR operations without the required equipment. A handheld GPS does not require any placard to be affixed to the aircraft or any change to a flight manual. |
#8
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Tim, some of the other guys are playing around with you a little bit, but
I'll spell it out for you since I started it. That reg says what you have to have onboard, but does not say what you will or must use for navigation. IFR course tracking is a performance standard. You must stay on the assigned course. How you do that is not specified or regulated. What you use to fly that course is not specified or regulated. Only that you fly that course, somehow. So, you may use dead reckoning if you want to, radar vectors, celestial nav (right!), or even (the crowd is on the edge of their seats in anticpation) a tuna sandwich. The tuna sandwich must not, however, be placarded "VFR only." So, it is perfectly acceptable to look at your handheld GPS, see that it says 237 degrees and 16 minutes to FUBAR, dead reckon by flying a 237 heading, and monitor your progress by reference to the handheld GPS. wrote in message ... Michael wrote: But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement? IMO, more than 5 years but less than 15. Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions ("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS Well, they don't really. I bet you can do that with the M1 LORAN. Or you could if it didn't come with a placard limiting it to VFR use only. A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation - NOT an advisory circular or AIM). Try 91.205 (d) (2) for starters: d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required: (2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used. Think non-radar operations, where the controller isn't going to play "Frick and Frack" direct-to games with you. Failure to comply with 91.205 can rapidly lead to 91.3, and the FAA attorneys win every time. |
#9
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"Dan Thompson" wrote in message news Tim, some of the other guys are playing around with you a little bit, but I'll spell it out for you since I started it. That reg says what you have to have onboard, but does not say what you will or must use for navigation. IFR course tracking is a performance standard. You must stay on the assigned course. How you do that is not specified or regulated. What you use to fly that course is not specified or regulated. Only that you fly that course, somehow. So, you may use dead reckoning if you want to, radar vectors, celestial nav (right!), or even (the crowd is on the edge of their seats in anticpation) a tuna sandwich. The tuna sandwich must not, however, be placarded "VFR only." So, it is perfectly acceptable to look at your handheld GPS, see that it says 237 degrees and 16 minutes to FUBAR, There are GPS units that use minutes? I'd have thought them all to be decimal format. dead reckon by flying a 237 heading, and monitor your progress by reference to the handheld GPS. A good pilot will have an idea of the wind and correct for it. |
#10
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Dan Thompson wrote: Tim, some of the other guys are playing around with you a little bit, but I'll spell it out for you since I started it. Thanks for "helping" me. Have you ever heard of Class I and Class II navigation? Those are ICAO terms that define what constitutes acceptable IFR navigation in three different defined areas: domestic, oceanic, and remote land mass. The United States is a signatory to that convention. The VOR system is thus considered the primary means of IFR navigation. With limited exceptions, IFR-certified GPS is not approved as primary means in a non-radar environment in domestic airspace. That is changing, of course. But, it does not include VFR GPS units, which do not qualify for IFR navigation. That reg says what you have to have onboard, but does not say what you will or must use for navigation. IFR course tracking is a performance standard. You must stay on the assigned course. How you do that is not specified or regulated. What you use to fly that course is not specified or regulated. Only that you fly that course, somehow. So, you may use dead reckoning if you want to, radar vectors, celestial nav (right!), or even (the crowd is on the edge of their seats in anticpation) a tuna sandwich. The tuna sandwich must not, however, be placarded "VFR only." So, it is perfectly acceptable to look at your handheld GPS, see that it says 237 degrees and 16 minutes to FUBAR, dead reckon by flying a 237 heading, and monitor your progress by reference to the handheld GPS. wrote in message ... Michael wrote: But, how much longer will it be before /G is a de facto requirement? IMO, more than 5 years but less than 15. Already when I fly IFR (filed /U) controllers give me instructions ("proceed direct foobar") that require GPS Well, they don't really. I bet you can do that with the M1 LORAN. Or you could if it didn't come with a placard limiting it to VFR use only. A handheld GPS will not come with such a placard, and there's no rule that says you can't use it for enroute IFR (anyone who says otherwise is welcome to quote chapter and verse from the approriate regulation - NOT an advisory circular or AIM). Try 91.205 (d) (2) for starters: d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required: (2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used. Think non-radar operations, where the controller isn't going to play "Frick and Frack" direct-to games with you. Failure to comply with 91.205 can rapidly lead to 91.3, and the FAA attorneys win every time. |
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