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#11
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Hold on a bit. Bravery is not a never-ending supply. Agree, Walt. Bravery and, just as important, mental sharpness both are exhaustible resources. Look what happened to Guy Gibson - too many times to the well and ended up killing his hapless "navigator" and himself. His "bravery" (or internal drive to grapple with the enemy) was the primary reason both of these airmen died. The top British nightfighter freely admitted he was shot down and captured because he was mentally exhausted by too many operational sorties; he "spaced", made a rookie mistake that nearly got him and his nav killed when they were caught at low altitude and low airspeed by enemy fighters. (That same sort of mistake got Duke and Driscoll shot down after the biggest day of their flying careers, but for different reasons than the Brit nightfighter.) Expecting men to face death daily over a period of years is not a way to find out who is brave and who is not - its simply a way to expend them like cartridges, or leave many of them as broken shadows for the rest of their lives. v/r Gordon |
#12
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IIRC, RAF let the pilots let off steam, eg get drunk and disorderly, clap,
women pregnant etc. As long as they keep flying over target. The moment there is any hesitation, the pilots get busted on "LMF- Lack of Moral Fibre" "WaltBJ" wrote in message om... Hold on a bit. Bravery is not a never-ending supply. The British found this out a long long time ago. Our forces need to learn from them. I read that in WW2 the Brits pulled the men out of the front lines after about 30 days to decompress, get a hot shower, clean unis, decent chow, and live normally - as normal as one could get wherever they were. The US Army did not do this. If you get a chance watch 'The Battle of San Pietro' - it covers the flak-happy syndrome, battle fatigue, what ever you want to call it. If you read 'Night Fighter' by C F Rawnsley you will read about him and 'the twitch' - too many times to the well without a break. And the amount of 'bravery' a man has is quite variable; some can go on and on and others need a break sooner (famous bell curve). One of the unfortunate consequences of staying in continuous combat too long is the degradation of judgement. FWIW I remember hearing about a pilot who flipped out while on his 748th combat mission in SEA. Anybody else remember that case, supposedly around 1971, or was it just another rumor? Now, for the really worthless SOBs, how about that BUFF pilot who was willing to sit alert with multiple Hbombs but his conscience wouldn't let him go over to SEA and drop dinky little HE bombs on people. Walt BJ |
#13
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In article , ArtKramr
writes THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY SNIP of interesting, if sad, story I am not really qualified to comment on the case of a single flier who seemed to be doing fine until he got dropped on his head; I can only admire those who manage to soldier on until the end; and feel sympathy for those who cannot. However, it is not as if all aircrew come off the production line, fully quality controlled in all respects, and guaranteed to function fully for as long as necessary. In late 1945, a study was made into the psychological disorders in flying personnel of the RAF during WWII. This highlighted the fact that the selection process for aircrew could not filter out all of the candidates who would one day have a problem. It is a maxim of management that when a man fails in his job the manager must share in the blame for having put him there in the first place. During the war, medical officers and flying instructors were briefed to watch for temperamental unsuitability - they didn't always get it right. The findings of the 1945 report are quite interesting, and a brief summary follows: Year by year there were about 3000 cases of nervous breakdown and 300 cases of lack of confidence, which showed that the selection process was at least fairly uniform in its application. One third of the cases of neurosis occurred in Bomber Command, one third in Training Command, and the rest were spread amongst Coastal Command, Transport Command, and Fighter Command. One third broke down without experience of operational flying, one third broke down with less than 100 hours operational flying, and one third broke down with more than 100 hours operational flying. Types of nervous breakdown were chiefly anxiety and hysteria, both accounting for over 90 percent of cases. Almost all cases (98.4 percent) had an underlying psychological rather than a physical basis. Of the cases of psychological disorder, 22.5 percent returned to full flying, 3.5 percent returned to limited flying, and 72 percent were grounded. 1.9 percent had to be invalided out. One conclusion drawn was that psychiatric assessment was not appropriate at aircrew entry, but should be one medical factor to be taken into account at the final selection board. So, although the RAF necessarily used the LMF tag to keep the waverers in the job, privately it had a good understanding of the statistical probabilities of the number of aircrew that would break down in any period of time, and they knew that it was ultimately an issue of proper selection processes. That was a distinct improvement on the WWI practice of the British army of allowing kids in their mid-teens to lie about their age and enter the war; and then shoot them when they (unsurprisingly) cracked. It is said that the army simply could not afford to acknowledge the fact of shell- shock - although the army of 1939-45 seemed to have managed things a bit better and only used the firing squad when it seemed to be absolutely necessary to stop things unravelling. The execution of Eddie Slovik in January 1945 owed more to a view of practical necessities during the Battle of the Bulge than to the 'shock' of finding a deserter; there were an incredible number - Hitler executed 50,000 men for cowardice; a price in manpower paid for not correctly choosing between the men who should be holding muskets; and those who should be away from the front line. I guess we just cannot expect sympathy and an objective view of the human condition to reign supreme during wartime. As ever; management is at fault, but believes it cannot afford to admit it. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Eadsforth |
#14
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"Dave Eadsforth" wrote in message ... In article , ArtKramr writes That was a distinct improvement on the WWI practice of the British army of allowing kids in their mid-teens to lie about their age and enter the war; and then shoot them when they (unsurprisingly) cracked. It is said that the army simply could not afford to acknowledge the fact of shell- shock - although the army of 1939-45 seemed to have managed things a bit better and only used the firing squad when it seemed to be absolutely necessary to stop things unravelling. The execution of Eddie Slovik in January 1945 owed more to a view of practical necessities during the Battle of the Bulge than to the 'shock' of finding a deserter; there were an incredible number - Hitler executed 50,000 men for cowardice; a price in manpower paid for not correctly choosing between the men who should be holding muskets; and those who should be away from the front line. I guess we just cannot expect sympathy and an objective view of the human condition to reign supreme during wartime. As ever; management is at fault, but believes it cannot afford to admit it. I'm not sure I entirely agree. As you have mentioned the RAF and British Army at least attempted to address the issue in a more realistic and enlightened way. I recall my father speaking about a number of men who simply cracked under the pressure of constant fear in the line. It wasnt just a matter of courage as at least one of them had been awarded the military medal. One case he never forgot was when they were pinned down for 2 days by German mortars and machine guns just outside Caen in 1944 when his mate who had been in the regiment since 1938 and served throughout France in 1940 , North Africa and Italy had a breakdown. They had to physically restrain him or he'd have bolted from the trench which would have been suicidal. He rejoined the regiment in early 1945 after treatment and nobody thought the worse of him, he was just another casualty of the war. A more well known example is the late comedian Spike Milligan who broke down in Italy in 1944 after being shelled on a mountain side in Italy while acting as a forward artillery observer. I'm sure the US forces were equally enlightened by the way its just that my only direct knowledge is related to the British armed forces. I do recall the furore that resulted after Patton slapped a man suffering from combat fatigue. In WW1 that man would have been shot. Keith |
#15
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Subject: THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
From: "Alfred Loo" Date: 2/3/04 11:50 PM Pacific Standard Time IRC, RAF let the pilots let off steam, eg get drunk and disorderly, clap, women pregnant etc. As long as they keep flying over target. The moment there is any hesitation, the pilots get busted on "LMF- Lack of Moral Fibre" Yeah. War was hard. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#16
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In message , Krztalizer
writes Hold on a bit. Bravery is not a never-ending supply. Agree, Walt. Bravery and, just as important, mental sharpness both are exhaustible resources. Look what happened to Guy Gibson - too many times to the well and ended up killing his hapless "navigator" and himself. His "bravery" (or internal drive to grapple with the enemy) was the primary reason both of these airmen died. At the time of the dams raid Gibson was so exhausted and run-down that he had a large carbuncle on his cheek that made it painful to do up his oxygen mask. From what I have read (I have no experience of combat) many writers have said that every man has a given deposit of courage and endurance. When the withdrawals exceed the deposit then that's it. I read of one excellent navigator who, on his first mission over enemy territory, clung to a spar in terror all the way there and all the way back. He was removed immediately, of course, but it seems impossible to predict any individual's reaction to danger. The poor sod whom Art described was taken too far, but it was unpredictable. The top British nightfighter freely admitted he was shot down and captured because he was mentally exhausted by too many operational sorties; he "spaced", made a rookie mistake that nearly got him and his nav killed when they were caught at low altitude and low airspeed by enemy fighters. (That same sort of mistake got Duke and Driscoll shot down after the biggest day of their flying careers, but for different reasons than the Brit nightfighter.) Expecting men to face death daily over a period of years is not a way to find out who is brave and who is not - its simply a way to expend them like cartridges, or leave many of them as broken shadows for the rest of their lives. Yes, I saw a paratroop sergeant break down in tears on television once, after describing his experiences in NI. A paratroop sergeant! The toughest of the tough. Mike -- M.J.Powell |
#17
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Subject: THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
From: "M. J. Powell" Yes, I saw a paratroop sergeant break down in tears on television once, after describing his experiences in NI. A paratroop sergeant! The toughest of the tough. It's not what you do on television that counts. It is what you do in combat that counts. No Air Medals for TV appearances. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#19
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(WaltBJ) wrote:
[snipped for brevity] FWIW I remember hearing about a pilot who flipped out while on his 748th combat mission in SEA. Anybody else remember that case, supposedly around 1971, or was it just another rumor? After surviving nearly 750 missions (?!!) in combat who the hell *wouldn't* be section eight material? |
#20
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In message , ArtKramr
writes Subject: THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY From: "M. J. Powell" Yes, I saw a paratroop sergeant break down in tears on television once, after describing his experiences in NI. A paratroop sergeant! The toughest of the tough. It's not what you do on television that counts. It is what you do in combat that counts. No Air Medals for TV appearances. Sometimes Art, you show positive genius in misunderstanding people. Mike -- M.J.Powell |
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