Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/25/2004 4:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: "Mike"
Date: 8/25/2004 2:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Robert Briggs UCKET
Date: 8/25/2004 11:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Mike Dargan wrote:
ArtKramr wrote:

The tighter the formation you fly the tighter the bomb pattern
on
the ground and the more damage you do to the enemy.

If you're trying to wreck fresh bomb craters, the tighter the
better.

Nicely put, Mike.



Is that that the result of the many missions you flew and your
experience
with
formation variations and the effect on bomb patterns? BTW, how many
missions
did you fly? Could you give us details?



Art, have you never heard of research?

Your individual experience is limited.... one man's view of what
happened.


And you both have it all wrong. I did my research at 10,000 feet over
the
Ruhr
valley.


I have no argument that your experience taught a great deal about
personal discipline, crew cooperation, and the value of formations.

But the best BDA, the statistical analysis of bomb dispersion patterns,
aren't done from 10,000 feet. May I assume, for example, that there was
no photogrammetric analysis gear aboard Willie the Wolf? It may be
unglamorous and not at all warrior-like, but target vulnerability
analysis tends to involve civil engineers and photointerpreters,
straining their eyes over photographs.

Did your research include the decision that blast, fragmentation, or
thermal effect would be most damaging for a target? Instantaneous or
delay fuzing?



Let me set you straight so you don't have to go on assumptions. Every
mission
resulted in photogrametric strike photos that we studied carefully after
the
mission. We saw what happened from the air on the ground then we saw the
strike
photos. You can actually see those photos on my website taken on the
missions I
flew. But afterward recon planes (P-38's) took shots after the smoke
cleared
(see "death of a marshalling yard") so we could see the damage on the
ground. I
think that will give you a good idea of how we went about our attacks..


I think you are missing my point. Did your _flight_ crews select the
target and the munitions to be used? I think not. There were targeting
organizations that had to call on specialized skills, ranging from
vulnerability analysis to detailed photointerpretation to statistical
analysis of weapons effects. Yes, you were at the pointy end, but the
spear also has a staff.

How do you measure Constance Babington-Smith's contribution?

Art

Those photos probably would have been taken by F-5's.

Jack G.


But afterward recon planes (P-38's) took shots after the smoke cleared
(see "death of a marshalling yard") so we could see the damage on the
ground. I
think that will give you a good idea of how we went about our attacks..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/25/2004 6:28 PM Pacific Standard Time

I think you are missing my point. Did your _flight_ crews select the
target and the munitions to be used? I think not. There were targeting
organizations that had to call on specialized skills, ranging from
vulnerability analysis to detailed photointerpretation to statistical
analysis of weapons effects. Yes, you were at the pointy end, but the
spear also has a staff.


How does any of that limit or make my combat observations less valid? In the
end the guys you are talking about did the easy work in an office. We did the
hard work as you put it on the pointy end of the spear.
And none of those guys you are refering to ever went down in flames or were
buried in foreign graves. Screw 'em all with their easy comfortable sheltered
lives and total
safety. While they were enjoying Martinis in London we were catching hell over
Germany and many of us never came back. Screw 'em all.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

How does any of that limit or make my combat observations less valid? In
the
end the guys you are talking about did the easy work in an office. We did
the
hard work as you put it on the pointy end of the spear.
And none of those guys you are refering to ever went down in flames or
were
buried in foreign graves. Screw 'em all with their easy comfortable
sheltered
lives and total
safety. While they were enjoying Martinis in London we were catching hell
over
Germany and many of us never came back. Screw 'em all.

"Screw 'em all."

There we have it, folks. The definitive statement from FO Art Kramer about
anyone who is non-aircrew. Excuse me...non combat aircrew.

Pete

ArtKramr wrote:

While they were enjoying Martinis in London we were catching hell over
Germany and many of us never came back. Screw 'em all.

You moron, without the Martini sipping targeteers your weapons would have
little if any effect. I realize your knowledge of WWII is severely limited
beyond your own crew, but do you think Germany was defeated simply because you
dropped bombs? No, it was the effect created by your bombs. No targeteers, no
effects. Kind of like the weapons load crews you equally despised. No weapons
loaded, no bombs dropped.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 8/25/2004 8:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

While they were enjoying Martinis in London we were catching hell over
Germany and many of us never came back. Screw 'em all.

You moron, without the Martini sipping targeteers your weapons would have
little if any effect. I realize your knowledge of WWII is severely limited
beyond your own crew, but do you think Germany was defeated simply because
you
dropped bombs? No, it was the effect created by your bombs. No targeteers, no
effects. Kind of like the weapons load crews you equally despised. No weapons
loaded, no bombs dropped.




What the hell do you know about it? You are the ****ing moron.. Asshole.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"BUFDRVR" wrote
ArtKramr wrote:

While they were enjoying Martinis in London we were catching hell over
Germany and many of us never came back. Screw 'em all.

You moron, without the Martini sipping targeteers your weapons would have
little if any effect. I realize your knowledge of WWII is severely limited
beyond your own crew, but do you think Germany was defeated simply because you
dropped bombs? No, it was the effect created by your bombs. No targeteers, no
effects. Kind of like the weapons load crews you equally despised. No weapons
loaded, no bombs dropped.

By calling him a moron, you do a disservice to all morons. Kramer isn't a moron,
he doesn't have that much brain left. A moron can be educated; Kramer can't.

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/25/2004 6:28 PM Pacific Standard Time

I think you are missing my point. Did your _flight_ crews select the
target and the munitions to be used? I think not. There were targeting
organizations that had to call on specialized skills, ranging from
vulnerability analysis to detailed photointerpretation to statistical
analysis of weapons effects. Yes, you were at the pointy end, but the
spear also has a staff.


How does any of that limit or make my combat observations less valid? In
the
end the guys you are talking about did the easy work in an office. We
did the
hard work as you put it on the pointy end of the spear.
And none of those guys you are refering to ever went down in flames or
were
buried in foreign graves. Screw 'em all with their easy comfortable
sheltered
lives and total
safety. While they were enjoying Martinis in London we were catching hell
over
Germany and many of us never came back. Screw 'em all.



I haven't the slightest doubt that more of you came back alive because
of the work of the operations research groups, the cover and deception
organizations, and the target analysts.

"ArtKramr" wrote

What the hell do you know about it? You are the ****ing moron.. Asshole.

How do you know they were sipping martini's if you were supposedly
over Germany??

In article DIcXc.14362$ni.2337@okepread01, "Bob Coe"
wrote:

"BUFDRVR" wrote
ArtKramr wrote:

While they were enjoying Martinis in London we were catching hell over
Germany and many of us never came back. Screw 'em all.

You moron, without the Martini sipping targeteers your weapons would
have
little if any effect. I realize your knowledge of WWII is severely
limited
beyond your own crew, but do you think Germany was defeated simply
because you
dropped bombs? No, it was the effect created by your bombs. No
targeteers, no
effects. Kind of like the weapons load crews you equally despised. No
weapons
loaded, no bombs dropped.

By calling him a moron, you do a disservice to all morons. Kramer isn't
a moron,
he doesn't have that much brain left. A moron can be educated; Kramer
can't.



I have some mental pictures involved, of an ammunition ship, carrying
bombs to the ETO from an American factory, catching a torpedo.