First Annual Fun - Day 2

I absolutley agree that preventative maintenance is the key. No
arguments there. For our Mooney it would be impossible to do it in 4
hours and hit every item on the list. Most shops I talked to charge 20+
hours to get everything done. And yes I am implying that the $325.00
annuals that have been done on our plane before we purchased it were
indeed pencil whipped.

Jon

RST Engineering wrote:
If you are implying that annuals costing $325 or less are all
pencil-whipped, we need to talk. Or you need to talk to some of the folks
that I do annuals for that cost $200 (max). Of course, they spend three or
four days unbuttoning, buttoning, greasing, and all the rest of it before I
get there. Rarely do you find an unairworthy item on a well
owner-maintained aircraft, so most of the cost is keeping at the maintenance
all through the year.

"Fixing" everything during an annual is not only dangerous, but sort of
silly.

I'm doing a Champ this weekend. Wanna come over and watch what an "annual
inspection" really is? We even have the spar inspection AD and a mag AD to
take care of and I doubt I will be there more than 4 hours. But then again,
the owner rebuilt the aircraft himself (he's built five or six homebuilts
and is a hell of a lot better woodsmith than I am) and could do the
pre-inspection blindfolded.

That's OK, after you do it ten times, you'll get the hang of it. What you
should REALLY ask your IA for is a list of items that (s)he sees that could
stand a little preventive maintenance during the coming year. Fixing it
before it really breaks is the cheapest maintenance you can have.

Jim



"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...

I think what he meant was that for a new owner's first annual that he has
seen a lot worse. Especially since it appears that our previous owner had a
a "friend" doing the last couple of pencil whipped annuals. I found last
years bill for $325.00. Oh well live and learn...

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
I absolutley agree that preventative maintenance is the key. No arguments
there. For our Mooney it would be impossible to do it in 4 hours and hit
every item on the list.

Why do you say that? I have three Mooneys on my string, and it is not at
all impossible (and actually probable) to do the INSPECTION inside of four
hours.


Most shops I talked to charge 20+
hours to get everything done.

I couldn't care less what shops you have talked to. Read the inspection
list. If you can't do those inspections between breakfast and lunch, you
just aren't trying too hard.

Do NOT include the inspector pulling all the panels and plates. Do NOT
include the inspector pulling the cowl. Do NOT include the inspector
pulling the plugs, the air filter, the gyro filter, the ... The inspector
INSPECTS, (s)he doesn't do grunt work.



And yes I am implying that the $325.00
annuals that have been done on our plane before we purchased it were
indeed pencil whipped.

That's not what I asked you. Read the post. I asked if you thought that
annuals that cost less than $325 were all pencil whipped.

Jim

Jim,
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. :-) I did read the list and
still don't see how to get the inspection part done in 4 hours. I guess
it is just me inexperience showing. I came away from the experience
impressed with all of the items hat an annual entails. Thanks for your
feedback.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

RST Engineering wrote:

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...

I absolutley agree that preventative maintenance is the key. No arguments
there. For our Mooney it would be impossible to do it in 4 hours and hit
every item on the list.


Why do you say that? I have three Mooneys on my string, and it is not at
all impossible (and actually probable) to do the INSPECTION inside of four
hours.


Most shops I talked to charge 20+

hours to get everything done.


I couldn't care less what shops you have talked to. Read the inspection
list. If you can't do those inspections between breakfast and lunch, you
just aren't trying too hard.

Do NOT include the inspector pulling all the panels and plates. Do NOT
include the inspector pulling the cowl. Do NOT include the inspector
pulling the plugs, the air filter, the gyro filter, the ... The inspector
INSPECTS, (s)he doesn't do grunt work.



And yes I am implying that the $325.00

annuals that have been done on our plane before we purchased it were
indeed pencil whipped.


That's not what I asked you. Read the post. I asked if you thought that
annuals that cost less than $325 were all pencil whipped.

Jim

RST Engineering wrote:


Why do you say that? I have three Mooneys on my string, and it is not at
all impossible (and actually probable) to do the INSPECTION inside of four
hours.

I have no idea what the inspection list is for a Mooney.

I do know that putting my Bonanza up on the jacks, swinging the gear,
inspecting the uplock cables, hitting a few zerks with grease (which
really can only effectively be done with the gear partially up), and
taking it off the jacks will easily consume an hour. Closer to two hours
if done by one person.

I know that Mooneys have simpler gear (at least the early ones), but I
find it surprising that one person can do a gear inspection on one in less
than an hour. It would seem that doing the rest of the inspection in
three hours might be tough.

Maybe Mooneys don't have to go on jacks to inspect the gear? You don't
do the rest of the inspection while the plane is on the jacks, do you?
(if so, you are a much braver man than me).

How do you do this, Jim? I'm not doubting, just impressed.


--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

You do need to put the Mooney up on jacks to do all the gear checks. Not
only is the gear swung and the emergency extension checked, all the
springs are measured and the pre-load is checked. Then a million zerks
(OK maybe 20) have to be greased. This all takes easily over an hour and
probably closer to 2. At least that is what I observed. YMMV

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

Frank Stutzman wrote:
snip

I have no idea what the inspection list is for a Mooney.

I do know that putting my Bonanza up on the jacks, swinging the gear,
inspecting the uplock cables, hitting a few zerks with grease (which
really can only effectively be done with the gear partially up), and
taking it off the jacks will easily consume an hour. Closer to two hours
if done by one person.

I know that Mooneys have simpler gear (at least the early ones), but I
find it surprising that one person can do a gear inspection on one in less
than an hour. It would seem that doing the rest of the inspection in
three hours might be tough.

Maybe Mooneys don't have to go on jacks to inspect the gear? You don't
do the rest of the inspection while the plane is on the jacks, do you?
(if so, you are a much braver man than me).

How do you do this, Jim? I'm not doubting, just impressed.

Does the inspector put it up on jacks, or the owner/grease money?

Who greases the zerks? (I don't even know what a zerk is)

How long does it actually take to do the gear checks, measure springs and
pre-load?

There is a difference between an annual inspection and the normal
maintenance that is typically done while the plane is apart for inspection.

The point is that the 'inspection' part probably takes four hours, and the
maintenance is the difference. This is why an owner-assisted annual can be a
real money saver.

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
You do need to put the Mooney up on jacks to do all the gear checks. Not
only is the gear swung and the emergency extension checked, all the
springs are measured and the pre-load is checked. Then a million zerks
(OK maybe 20) have to be greased. This all takes easily over an hour and
probably closer to 2. At least that is what I observed. YMMV

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

Frank Stutzman wrote:
snip

I have no idea what the inspection list is for a Mooney.

I do know that putting my Bonanza up on the jacks, swinging the gear,
inspecting the uplock cables, hitting a few zerks with grease (which
really can only effectively be done with the gear partially up), and
taking it off the jacks will easily consume an hour. Closer to two
hours
if done by one person.

I know that Mooneys have simpler gear (at least the early ones), but I
find it surprising that one person can do a gear inspection on one in
less
than an hour. It would seem that doing the rest of the inspection in
three hours might be tough.

Maybe Mooneys don't have to go on jacks to inspect the gear? You don't
do the rest of the inspection while the plane is on the jacks, do you?
(if so, you are a much braver man than me).

How do you do this, Jim? I'm not doubting, just impressed.

Jon Kraus wrote:
You do need to put the Mooney up on jacks to do all the gear checks. Not
only is the gear swung and the emergency extension checked, all the
springs are measured and the pre-load is checked. Then a million zerks
(OK maybe 20) have to be greased. This all takes easily over an hour and
probably closer to 2. At least that is what I observed. YMMV

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201

Frank Stutzman wrote:
snip


I have no idea what the inspection list is for a Mooney.

I do know that putting my Bonanza up on the jacks, swinging the gear,
inspecting the uplock cables, hitting a few zerks with grease (which
really can only effectively be done with the gear partially up), and
taking it off the jacks will easily consume an hour. Closer to two
hours if done by one person.

I know that Mooneys have simpler gear (at least the early ones), but I
find it surprising that one person can do a gear inspection on one in
less than an hour. It would seem that doing the rest of the
inspection in three hours might be tough.

Maybe Mooneys don't have to go on jacks to inspect the gear? You
don't do the rest of the inspection while the plane is on the jacks,
do you? (if so, you are a much braver man than me).

How do you do this, Jim? I'm not doubting, just impressed.



Putting Greases in "zerks" is not part of the inspection. It's
maintenance that might be conveniently done at the inspection time, but
Jim is counting only the inspection steps no doubt.

Ron Natalie wrote:

Putting Greases in "zerks" is not part of the inspection. It's
maintenance that might be conveniently done at the inspection time, but
Jim is counting only the inspection steps no doubt.

Yeah, I knew somebody was going to point that out. The thing is that
greasing of the landing gear zerks must be done. If you don't do it
during the inspection, you have may have reduced the inspection time, but
you have increased your shop time.

Ok, just for arguments sake, Lets say no greasing or adjusting of the gear
is neccessary. I am pretty sure that my IA cannot put my Bonanza on the
jacks, inspect the gear, and take it off the jacks by himself in 1.5
hours. He can certainly do it in a hour if I am there to help. However,
that makes it 2 MANHOURS to do the inspection. According to Jim's
figuring he has a remaining 2 hours to do the rest of the inspection.
Sounds kinda tough.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

But if you can find an IA who is willing to do only the 'inspection' part,
while you do the maintenance, you'll learn loads and save loads.

The question is "Can the IA find something else to do while you're taking
the plane down off the jacks?"


"Frank Stutzman" wrote in message
...
Ron Natalie wrote:

Putting Greases in "zerks" is not part of the inspection. It's
maintenance that might be conveniently done at the inspection time, but
Jim is counting only the inspection steps no doubt.

Yeah, I knew somebody was going to point that out. The thing is that
greasing of the landing gear zerks must be done. If you don't do it
during the inspection, you have may have reduced the inspection time, but
you have increased your shop time.

Ok, just for arguments sake, Lets say no greasing or adjusting of the gear
is neccessary. I am pretty sure that my IA cannot put my Bonanza on the
jacks, inspect the gear, and take it off the jacks by himself in 1.5
hours. He can certainly do it in a hour if I am there to help. However,
that makes it 2 MANHOURS to do the inspection. According to Jim's
figuring he has a remaining 2 hours to do the rest of the inspection.
Sounds kinda tough.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

"Frank Stutzman" wrote in message
...
Ron Natalie wrote:

Putting Greases in "zerks" is not part of the inspection. It's
maintenance that might be conveniently done at the inspection time, but
Jim is counting only the inspection steps no doubt.

Yeah, I knew somebody was going to point that out. The thing is that
greasing of the landing gear zerks must be done. If you don't do it
during the inspection, you have may have reduced the inspection time, but
you have increased your shop time.

Ok, just for arguments sake, Lets say no greasing or adjusting of the gear
is neccessary. I am pretty sure that my IA cannot put my Bonanza on the
jacks, inspect the gear, and take it off the jacks by himself in 1.5
hours. He can certainly do it in a hour if I am there to help. However,
that makes it 2 MANHOURS to do the inspection. According to Jim's
figuring he has a remaining 2 hours to do the rest of the inspection.
Sounds kinda tough.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR


You missed the point. Putting it on jacks and removing the jacks is not
part of an annual inspection. My IA uses three tools during an annual......a
pen, a mirror and a flashlight. I can't see paying IA rates to squeeze a
grease gun, remove inspection plates or all the other no brainier tasks
involved in an annual.