Filing IFR flight Plan in VMC

I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Thanks ron..

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/ifr/200807/1

"Cyberfly via AviationKB.com" u45015@uwe wrote in message
news:87d5dd402195d@uwe...
I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im
renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file
an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by
myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping
VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in
IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice
would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my
fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so
I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my
IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Thanks ron..

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/ifr/200807/1

This one I think is pretty straightforward.

You may not accept or fly under an IFR clearance unless the plane and PIC
are IFR current.

Time of day, visibility, class of airspace do not play a part in this
determination.

You can file (for the practice of filing) but you cannot accept the
clearance as PIC unless you are IFR current.

Which raises the question "is the safety pilot PIC" if the pilot operating
the controls with a vision restricting device is has not met the 6/6
requirement? You are VFR but operating under an IFR clearance for the
purposes of the practice approaches. Who has legally accepted the
approaches?

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:56:16 GMT, "Cyberfly via AviationKB.com"
u45015@uwe wrote:

I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Unless I'm mistaken, you can't do it. Since you'd be PIC "under IFR"
and don't have the rating you can't meet the requirements in
91.169(a)(1) (referencing 91.153(a)(3) ("name of pilot in command" or
61.57(2)(c). It doesn't make a distinction between IMC or VMC while
flying under IFR.

61.57(2)(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in
weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless
within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has: (all the
stuff required for instrument currency)

Can you quote me the FAR that states this?? thanks ron

Howard wrote:
I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]

Thanks ron..

This one I think is pretty straightforward.

You may not accept or fly under an IFR clearance unless the plane and PIC
are IFR current.

Time of day, visibility, class of airspace do not play a part in this
determination.

You can file (for the practice of filing) but you cannot accept the
clearance as PIC unless you are IFR current.

Which raises the question "is the safety pilot PIC" if the pilot operating
the controls with a vision restricting device is has not met the 6/6
requirement? You are VFR but operating under an IFR clearance for the
purposes of the practice approaches. Who has legally accepted the
approaches?

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

On 07/28/08 11:56, Cyberfly via AviationKB.com wrote:
I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Thanks ron..


Ron,

Have a look at FAR 61.3 (e):

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and
instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane,
helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft
category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown;

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an
airplane instrument rating; or

(4) For an airship, a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air
category rating and airship class rating.



Note that it says "under IFR *or* in IMC". There are also regs concerning
your currency of flight experience. I'll let you look those up as a homework
assignment :-)

One thing you *can* do, however, is practice instrument approaches. I suspect
this is what the "old guys" were talking about.

Although not required, you should consider only doing this when you have a
safety pilot, as it is not easy to twiddle with all the dials while still
keeping your eyes outside the cockpit looking for other traffic.

How are things going with your rating otherwise?

Best Regards,

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On 07/28/08 12:15, Howard wrote:
"Cyberfly via AviationKB.com" u45015@uwe wrote in message
news:87d5dd402195d@uwe...
I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im
renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file
an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by
myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping
VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in
IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice
would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my
fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so
I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my
IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Thanks ron..

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/ifr/200807/1

This one I think is pretty straightforward.

You may not accept or fly under an IFR clearance unless the plane and PIC
are IFR current.

Time of day, visibility, class of airspace do not play a part in this
determination.

You can file (for the practice of filing) but you cannot accept the
clearance as PIC unless you are IFR current.

Which raises the question "is the safety pilot PIC" if the pilot operating
the controls with a vision restricting device is has not met the 6/6
requirement? You are VFR but operating under an IFR clearance for the
purposes of the practice approaches. Who has legally accepted the
approaches?




You do not have to be under an IFR clearance to practice approaches. In
fact, some controllers will say "Practice Approach Approved" rather than
the normal "Cleared for the approach" to make this point clear.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On 07/28/08 12:23, Peter Clark wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:56:16 GMT, "Cyberfly via AviationKB.com"
u45015@uwe wrote:

I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Unless I'm mistaken, you can't do it. Since you'd be PIC "under IFR"
and don't have the rating you can't meet the requirements in
91.169(a)(1) (referencing 91.153(a)(3) ("name of pilot in command" or
61.57(2)(c). It doesn't make a distinction between IMC or VMC while
flying under IFR.

61.57(2)(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in
weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless
within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has: (all the
stuff required for instrument currency)

You missed the big one: 61.3(e). Have a look at my other response.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:48:03 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 07/28/08 12:23, Peter Clark wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:56:16 GMT, "Cyberfly via AviationKB.com"
u45015@uwe wrote:

I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Unless I'm mistaken, you can't do it. Since you'd be PIC "under IFR"
and don't have the rating you can't meet the requirements in
91.169(a)(1) (referencing 91.153(a)(3) ("name of pilot in command" or
61.57(2)(c). It doesn't make a distinction between IMC or VMC while
flying under IFR.

61.57(2)(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in
weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless
within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has: (all the
stuff required for instrument currency)

You missed the big one: 61.3(e). Have a look at my other response.

Yea, dua, I was looking at it from the flight plan PIC requirement
back and stopped at recency.... Thanks.

Cyberfly via AviationKB.com wrote:

I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and
will be finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I
fly (Im renting. so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is
very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to
file an IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could
do so by myself without an instructor with me (and without my IFR
ticket). The premise is that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan
and fly it VMC while keeping VFR the entire time. It is very
"ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC without either your
IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would be great of
getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear is
that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO.
I have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario
and so I cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most
of my IFR training at night because of my work schedule and love the
night flights, less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?


You must have an instrument rating or an ATP to operate an airplane under
Instrument Flight Rules regardless of local weather conditions.


§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and
instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane,
helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft
category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown;

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an
airplane instrument rating; or

(4) For an airship, a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air
category rating and airship class rating.

On Jul 28, 11:56*am, "Cyberfly via AviationKB.com" u45015@uwe wrote:
I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR
the entire time.

This is what you get from free "old guy" advice. He is totally wrong.
It is illegal for you to accept an IFR clearance without being IFR
rated and current.

-Robert, CFII