Could the Press Grow a Spine?

Brett wrote:

The Opinion Journals comments a short time after Thieu death of natural
causes:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/column...y/?id=95001257


Good article and when you read it, you're left with the impression that NVN and
the U.S. were alone in Paris. Thieu has to get the details of the U.S.-NVN
agreement from captured VC documents? If the SVN were in Paris, they obviously
weren't doing much. Sightseeing?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On 28 Jun 2004 21:52:18 -0700, (w.a. manning)
wrote:

regrettably, political discussions are difficult with a president
that, by his own admission "doesnt do nuance". [sigh] GWB is a good
candidate to be a student of yours.

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
As I regularly tell students, political questions are complex and
nuanced.

You seem quite eager to jump in here, without apparently having much
preceding in the discussion.

Your quote regarding the President, while accurate, is taken out of
context. The reference is to dealing quite clearly with enemies such
as Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. He makes things quite clear to
them and wants them to understand that his message requires no great
degree of reading between lines and searching for limits. This is
quite appropriate.

When it comes to foreign policy, he seems to be quite nicely equipped
to deal with the complexities of international relations. And, most
importantly, he has surrounded himself with quite competent advisors,
most notably Colin Powell and Condeleeza Rice. His direction of the
orderly transition of sovereignty back to the interim Iraqi government
might be a case in point.

(You'll probably next want to bring up the "I don't read the papers"
comment. I'd suggest then that with the drivel recently coming out of
the NYT and WP that the policy choice might be a good one. With the
assets of the NSA at his disposal, he might not need to get the
interpretation of some ax-grinding left-wing editorialist to have
sufficient information to make good decisions.)

Elsewhere you've commented on my statement that I don't tolerate
poseurs and wannabes. You suggest I apply that to the President's
National Guard service where over a period of five years and several
months he attended USAF pilot training (I'm familiar with the rigors,
having graduated myself and then having spent four years as a flight
and academic instructor), having completed the necessary survival
schools (also familiar), and having qualified in a single-seat,
single-engine Century series jet to perform operational missions
(again, intimately familiar). I've discussed the President's flight
performance on several occasions with a close friend and F-105
100-mission pilot who served as the President's instructor pilot when
he attended UPT. I've got no problem with the President showing up in
Nomex and a G-suit--he's earned the right.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"w.a. manning" wrote in message
om...
"Jarg" wrote in message
...
And has anyone else noticed the increased use of the term "neocon" by
the
desperate left to describe anyone they don't like, which in my opinion
is an
example of the prejudicial language fallacy.

Jarg

perhaps the liberals have come up w/ an opposite equivalent to, well,
"liberals". "neocons" works.

I was under the impression that "conservative" was the equivalent.

Jarg

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

The sixties saw us (read large--the Brits did their share of countering
communist moves during this period, IIRC, especially in Malaya) face
insurgencies around the world; US "advisors" were apparently involved in
helping combat this threat in a fair number of spots outside
Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos. ISTR US special forces (and CIA) assets (to include
B-26K COIN aircraft) were active in Africa,

Yuo mean the CIA's support for the unsuccessful insurgency in Angola? Surely
that went on into the 80's?

John

"w.a. manning" wrote in message
om...
sounds alot like the current administration:

there are WMDs. repeat, ad inifinitum.
iraq has links to al qaeda. repeat, ad inifinitum.
the list goes on, ad infinitum.



Of course they have found WMD (or did you not catch that?), they have found
links to Al Quada (guess you missed that one too)

Oh well, it was a nice try at an analogy, better luck next time.

Jarg

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
Brett wrote:

The Opinion Journals comments a short time after Thieu death of natural
causes:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/column...y/?id=95001257


Good article and when you read it, you're left with the impression that
NVN and
the U.S. were alone in Paris. Thieu has to get the details of the U.S.-NVN
agreement from captured VC documents? If the SVN were in Paris, they
obviously
weren't doing much. Sightseeing?

A better description I believe is that they were dragged kicking and
screaming to the table. From the same article: __In "The White House Years,"
Mr. Kissinger quotes a crucial passage of a letter to Thieu from Nixon: "I
have therefore irrevocably decided to proceed to initial the Agreement on
January 23, 1973 and to sign it on January 27, 1973 in Paris. I will do so,
if necessary, alone. In that case I shall have to explain publicly that your
Government obstructs peace. The result will be an inevitable and immediate
termination of U.S. economic and military assistance which cannot be
forestalled by a change of personnel in your government. I hope, however,
that after all our two countries have shared and suffered together in
conflict, we will stay together to preserve peace and reap its benefits."__

"John Mullen" wrote:
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

The sixties saw us (read large--the Brits did their share of countering
communist moves during this period, IIRC, especially in Malaya) face
insurgencies around the world; US "advisors" were apparently involved in
helping combat this threat in a fair number of spots outside
Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos. ISTR US special forces (and CIA) assets (to
include
B-26K COIN aircraft) were active in Africa,

Yuo mean the CIA's support for the unsuccessful insurgency in Angola?
Surely
that went on into the 80's?

B-26's were supposedly flown in operations in the Congo, in the 1960's.
B-26's were used in Angola but I believe the missions where all flown by
members of the FAP.

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
Kevin Brooks wrote:

I am not sure your 20/20 hindsight is all that accurate in this case in
terms of the observation that the spread was "never going to be greater
than
Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam".

I base this on the fact that, at least in SE Asia, it appears these
different
communist elements not only were not capable of cooperating, but in fact
conducted operations against one and other. Vietnam invaded Cambodia in
'79, in
response China invade Vietnam. Although the Chinese military action was
short
lived (1 month?), Vietnam and China continued to have border skirmishes as
late
as the late 80s. China's relatonship with Cambodia has been hot & cold as
well.
Really, the only two communist nations in the region to get along were
Vietnam
and Laos. Seems to me you need strong alliances to spread any ideology and
I'm
not sure these SE Asian nations had that ability.

All very true, except for maybe that "strong alliances" part. Recall that
Vietnam was being supported by both the USSR and the PRC, even *after* they
had that not-so-little/minor border skirmish between those two nations on
the Amur (1969, IIRC). I guess my point was that had the US not done
anything in Vietnam, it would have left the door open for more adventurous
action (than what was actually experienced) on the part of the USSR and PRC
supporting communist factions in other nearby nations. Hence my reluctance
to accept that the dominos would have stopped falling after Laos, Cambodia,
and the RVN irrespective of whether or not the US demonstrated its
willingness to offer opposition in the region.

Brooks



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"Brett" wrote in message
...
"John Mullen" wrote:
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

The sixties saw us (read large--the Brits did their share of
countering
communist moves during this period, IIRC, especially in Malaya) face
insurgencies around the world; US "advisors" were apparently involved
in
helping combat this threat in a fair number of spots outside
Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos. ISTR US special forces (and CIA) assets (to
include
B-26K COIN aircraft) were active in Africa,

Yuo mean the CIA's support for the unsuccessful insurgency in Angola?
Surely
that went on into the 80's?

B-26's were supposedly flown in operations in the Congo, in the 1960's.
B-26's were used in Angola but I believe the missions where all flown by
members of the FAP.

Offering facts like that will only confuse him further.

Brooks

In article ,
"John Mullen" writes:
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

The sixties saw us (read large--the Brits did their share of countering
communist moves during this period, IIRC, especially in Malaya) face
insurgencies around the world; US "advisors" were apparently involved in
helping combat this threat in a fair number of spots outside
Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos. ISTR US special forces (and CIA) assets (to include
B-26K COIN aircraft) were active in Africa,

Yuo mean the CIA's support for the unsuccessful insurgency in Angola? Surely
that went on into the 80's?

He means the involvement of teh CIA, the USAF (AIr Commandos, and
later on, USAFE and MATS aircraft), and U.S. Army Special Forces in the
Congo. (Later Zaire, then the Congo again) in the period between the
two uprisings in the early and mid-'60s. It was the sort of thing
that occurred in Africa at teh time (And later, as well), with Tribal
animosities, strange mixtures of Marxism/Leninism/Maoism/Animism
thrown in, and an overtone of severe atrocities against any
"Europeans" or "European-ized" Africans. The first revolt/uprising
resulted in the U.N. getting involved, with Swedish and Indian
Peacekeepers strafing the natives with SAAB-29s and Canberras.
The second uprisising was put down by a comnination of Congolese,
Mercenaries ("Mad Mike" Hoare) funded by the CIA, with assistance from
the USAF Air Commandos (AT-28s and the B-26Ks), and the Belgian
Para-Commando Regiment, which was dropped from USAFE C-130s backed up
by MATS C-124s to rescue hostages (Mostly Europeans) held in
Stanleyville.

It's a big, nasty, complicated story that I couldn't possible do
justice to.

In addition, a goodly chunk of the Humanitarian Aid flown into Biafra
and oterh such places was in Air National Guard C-97s, "leased" at
some nominal fee to Balair in Switzerland (International Red Cross),
and World Church Aid. These aircraft were flown by ANG personnel.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster