Flying Thru Congested Areas

I am planning a long cross country where I am trying to minmiize the
time the trip will take (while, of course, trying to be as safe as
possible). The shortest route would take me straight over the top of
Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific). Perhaps this is a no brainer, but
that does not sound like a particularly good route to me, just because
of the congrestion in these spaces. The congestion (a) increases the
likelihood of vectoring delays, and (b) decreases my safety somewhat
because the probability of a collision is somewhat higher (although,
still quite small, I realize).

If I pick a route to the south, I could avoid all of these areas by
about 30 miles, but it adds about 60-70 miles to my trip. Even at 30
miles south, I imagine the congestion will be significant. In fact, a
controller once implied that it is often better to go straight across
the top of a major airport because there are fewer airplanes in
transition there (descending for approach, or climbing for departure).

So, what do you folks suggest? Thanks in advance for you advice.

-Sami
N2057M
Piper Turbo Arrow III

Hey Sami
If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

I am planning a long cross country where I am trying to minmiize the
time the trip will take (while, of course, trying to be as safe as
possible). The shortest route would take me straight over the top of
Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific). Perhaps this is a no brainer, but
that does not sound like a particularly good route to me, just because
of the congrestion in these spaces. The congestion (a) increases the
likelihood of vectoring delays, and (b) decreases my safety somewhat
because the probability of a collision is somewhat higher (although,
still quite small, I realize).

If I pick a route to the south, I could avoid all of these areas by
about 30 miles, but it adds about 60-70 miles to my trip. Even at 30
miles south, I imagine the congestion will be significant. In fact, a
controller once implied that it is often better to go straight across
the top of a major airport because there are fewer airplanes in
transition there (descending for approach, or climbing for departure).

So, what do you folks suggest? Thanks in advance for you advice.

-Sami
N2057M
Piper Turbo Arrow III

Jeff wrote:
: Hey Sami
: If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
: any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
: reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
: the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
: airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
: going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
: If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
: vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
: got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
: like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
: phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

I had that decision a few weeks ago flying from Milwaukee to SW Virginia.
Flying around Chicago is great if VFR (2000' or lower right along the lakeshore). I
ended up "scud running" (MVFR 1500' AGL SCT OVC) along the lake/downtown until though
the Bravo. Then I got a clearance and climbed to more favorable winds. The time before
I had to file IFR, and they vectored me halfway to Iowa (Rockford, IL) to keep me out
of the Class B. Since I won't fly over the lake in my Cherokee, that was the only
option.

I would imagine that if you go IFR, it could be similar around the big places.
VFR you can get up on top and tell 'em to get bent....

YMMV
-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

So, would it be poor form to get an ifr clearance to get above whatever
cloud layer at your departure airport....fly VFR when you are on
top....then pickup an on-the-fly IFR again 100 miles or so before your
destinatation airport if you needed to descend back down through a cloud
layer? I am not saying this is a particularly good idea, or
particularly "polite"...I am just asking a question here.


-Sami

wrote:
Jeff wrote:
: Hey Sami
: If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
: any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
: reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
: the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
: airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
: going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
: If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
: vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
: got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
: like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
: phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

I had that decision a few weeks ago flying from Milwaukee to SW Virginia.
Flying around Chicago is great if VFR (2000' or lower right along the lakeshore). I
ended up "scud running" (MVFR 1500' AGL SCT OVC) along the lake/downtown until though
the Bravo. Then I got a clearance and climbed to more favorable winds. The time before
I had to file IFR, and they vectored me halfway to Iowa (Rockford, IL) to keep me out
of the Class B. Since I won't fly over the lake in my Cherokee, that was the only
option.

I would imagine that if you go IFR, it could be similar around the big places.
VFR you can get up on top and tell 'em to get bent....

YMMV
-Cory

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

So, would it be poor form to get an ifr clearance to get above whatever
cloud layer at your departure airport....fly VFR when you are on
top....then pickup an on-the-fly IFR again 100 miles or so before your
destinatation airport if you needed to descend back down through a cloud
layer?


It's poor form if you don't file the flight plans before requesting the IFR
clearances, otherwise no problem.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

So, would it be poor form to get an ifr clearance to get above whatever
cloud layer at your departure airport....fly VFR when you are on
top....then pickup an on-the-fly IFR again 100 miles or so before your
destinatation airport if you needed to descend back down through a cloud
layer?


It's poor form if you don't file the flight plans before requesting the
IFR
clearances, otherwise no problem.



He would need two flight plans for this, right? One to get up, one to get
back down.

If instead, he requested VFR-on-top, do you think he could generally get
the routing he wanted? I mean what would ATC generally do with a request
like "N123 request VFR-on-top 7500 direct XYZ VOR, otherwise I'd like to
cancel IFR and request VFR advisories".

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

So, would it be poor form to get an ifr clearance to get above whatever
cloud layer at your departure airport....fly VFR when you are on
top....then pickup an on-the-fly IFR again 100 miles or so before your
destinatation airport if you needed to descend back down through a cloud
layer? I am not saying this is a particularly good idea, or
particularly "polite"...I am just asking a question here.

No need to cancel that IFR when you get on top, just ask for
VFR-on-top ! ATC likes it (reduced separation req.), you get to stay
out of ice and go direct, all while maintaining your IFR status when
you need to descend at your destination. No begging for popups, just
advise you won't be able to maintain VFR and ask for a hard altitude.
One of the truly practical procedures out there !

BTW, does anyone know if VFR OT exists in Canada, I know VFR
over-the-top (i.e. just VFR above clouds) isn't permitted.

Martin

"Martin Kosina" wrote in message
om...

No need to cancel that IFR when you get on top, just ask for
VFR-on-top ! ATC likes it (reduced separation req.), you get to stay
out of ice and go direct, all while maintaining your IFR status when
you need to descend at your destination.


VFR-on-top does not affect your route, you'll have to make a separate
request for direct.

VFR OTT (Over The Top) is allowed in Canada. It's just an extra rating that
can be added on to the PPL with 15 hours instrument time. It can only be
used if you are able to climb to altitude and descend at destination whilst
maintaining VFR. At altitude you have to maintain a certain distance from
the cloud layers. Flight following is not mandatory (but highly
recommended!).

Ross
"Martin Kosina" wrote in message
om...
So, would it be poor form to get an ifr clearance to get above whatever
cloud layer at your departure airport....fly VFR when you are on
top....then pickup an on-the-fly IFR again 100 miles or so before your
destinatation airport if you needed to descend back down through a cloud
layer? I am not saying this is a particularly good idea, or
particularly "polite"...I am just asking a question here.

No need to cancel that IFR when you get on top, just ask for
VFR-on-top ! ATC likes it (reduced separation req.), you get to stay
out of ice and go direct, all while maintaining your IFR status when
you need to descend at your destination. No begging for popups, just
advise you won't be able to maintain VFR and ask for a hard altitude.
One of the truly practical procedures out there !

BTW, does anyone know if VFR OT exists in Canada, I know VFR
over-the-top (i.e. just VFR above clouds) isn't permitted.

Martin

you can file a composit flight plan, part IFR and part VFR and do what you mentioned.
the one flight plan will cover your flight.

controllers will work with you if they know what your wanting to do.


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

So, would it be poor form to get an ifr clearance to get above whatever
cloud layer at your departure airport....fly VFR when you are on
top....then pickup an on-the-fly IFR again 100 miles or so before your
destinatation airport if you needed to descend back down through a cloud
layer? I am not saying this is a particularly good idea, or
particularly "polite"...I am just asking a question here.

-Sami

wrote:
Jeff wrote:
: Hey Sami
: If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
: any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
: reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
: the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
: airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
: going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
: If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
: vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
: got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
: like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
: phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

I had that decision a few weeks ago flying from Milwaukee to SW Virginia.
Flying around Chicago is great if VFR (2000' or lower right along the lakeshore). I
ended up "scud running" (MVFR 1500' AGL SCT OVC) along the lake/downtown until though
the Bravo. Then I got a clearance and climbed to more favorable winds. The time before
I had to file IFR, and they vectored me halfway to Iowa (Rockford, IL) to keep me out
of the Class B. Since I won't fly over the lake in my Cherokee, that was the only
option.

I would imagine that if you go IFR, it could be similar around the big places.
VFR you can get up on top and tell 'em to get bent....

YMMV
-Cory