"normal" procedure for pop-up filing

The alternate thing is interesting. In VMC, I just file IFR anyway. When I get close I'll either amend if I want to go further or cancel and go to FF. Nothing wrong with planning for IFR fuel and flying VFR fuel once there. Kind of good conservative planning. I'll do that next week flying to Tampa. With 4.5 hours, I can and have made Tampa without a stop but never plan it. I will file and get a clearance and see how it works this time.

Recently I was going from Florida to Cleveland with a stop just before
the mountains for fuel. While on the ground, a line of severe
thunderstorms passed by, and then I could go behind them. As there were
mountains and scattered embedded thunderstorms in the way, the IFR
routing would likely be wiggly, subject to revision, and would probably
not get me to Cleveland with an alternate and appropriate reserves. So
I'd need to stop again, and I would not be able to see the thunderheads
to avoid them.

But if I could slip out VFR, I could fly direct, avoid the nasty stuff
visually if it became an issue, and land with plenty of fuel at my
destination. I got flight following, advised them that I might nead a
clearance at some point, and did just that. Dodged a bit of weather
visually, climbed up to 12,000 feet while doing so, and approaching
Cleveland I got the ILS. Point two IMC in the logbook, one approach to
minimums, no convective surprises, plenty of outs, and no hassles.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
Happens less now. I generally file IFR unless there is a specific
reason to file VFR beyond CAVU. Why give up the extra eyes for
traffic,extra traffic separation standards, airspace management (MOA,
prohibited, restricteed obstacle avoidance), and TFR avoidance services
unless there is a clear advantage to not filing.

Time, range, and convetion. VFR you can usually go direct. IFR you get
routed around willy nilly so you use more gas and time, and require
reserves to an alternate plus forty five minutes after a non-direct
flight. Sometimes this makes a one leg flight into two legs, and the
VFR option is better (even from a safety POV).

Again it depends a lot. I have never had problems when flying IFR in VMC
with the routing. I fly from fulton county in Atlanta, and when I fly south
IFR is much nicer because I'll get vectored to fly over ATL inside the class
B, instead to try to scoot under the class B and go around ATL, which takes
more time. I guess I could get a clearance to go inside the class B under
VFR, but I'll probably be vectored in the same way anyways. I usually go
direct if I file like that. Well, maybe if you don't have an IFR capable GPS
you may lose a lot of time following airways, so in that case VFR will be
better. Not worrying about the airspaces is the greatest thing of IFR.
About the alternate, you only need the fuel for the alternate in the case
the weather is below 1-2-3, in which case its a good idea to have enough
fuel to go to the alternate + 45 minutes anyways. If the weather is clear,
you only need 45 minutes extra fuel from your first landing point (unless
the airport doesn't have an IAP). Ok, this is 15 minutes more than VFR, but
I won't do only 30 minutes reserve anyways. I like to keep it at one hour
reserve in ANY flight.
So agree that there may be certain situations in which you don't want IFR,
but I think in most of the cases it is the best thing to do if you are going
somewhere other than sigthseeing or training (especially if you have an IFR
GPS)

Jose wrote:

Happens less now. I generally file IFR unless there is a specific
reason to file VFR beyond CAVU. Why give up the extra eyes for
traffic,extra traffic separation standards, airspace management (MOA,
prohibited, restricteed obstacle avoidance), and TFR avoidance
services unless there is a clear advantage to not filing.


Time, range, and convetion. VFR you can usually go direct. IFR you get
routed around willy nilly so you use more gas and time, and require
reserves to an alternate plus forty five minutes after a non-direct
flight. Sometimes this makes a one leg flight into two legs, and the
VFR option is better (even from a safety POV).

In my limited experience I've had the opposite experience flying into a
class B. I was once with a flight of several airplanes on a CAVU day,
they all filed IFR and i went VFR. I took off first and landed last at
the destination (all planes the same type, so no speed differences).
Once I got near the busy area, I had to wait outside the class B until
they had time for me, while my IFR peers went right in. Once into the
class B I got a lot more circuitous vectoring than my IFR peers. They
basically tried to keep me as far away as they could for as long as
possible because they were busy with IFR traffic.

In my limited experience I've had the opposite experience flying into a class B.

Ok, but flying =into= a class B is different. The final portion being
IFR will help you. But getting to that place, IFR can lead to
roundabouts. This is especially true if you are going near or past a
class B that could otherwise be underflown. VFR you duck under, IFR you
get routed around.

At least that's my experience in the Northeast.

Jose

--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain."
(chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Maule Driver wrote:
Happens less now. I generally file IFR unless there is a specific
reason to file VFR beyond CAVU. Why give up the extra eyes for

I've started filing an IFR flight plan for any flight that isn't
100% CAVU. I don't always pick it up, but I try to always have it
on file in case I want to. If the weather's going down, my workload
will be high enough without adding "filing IFR" to it.

The only issue I've had was coming out of AUS the other day - I'd
filed IFR before I left Houston, and when I was ready to leave AUS,
I called up clearance on the ground. As soon as they heard my
tail number, they went into IFR clearance mode, read me the whole thing,
then I had to say, "Well, actually, I just want to go home VFR".

He seemed confused, but we eventually got it straightened out.

Tina Marie

Roy has put his finger on it. Transitioning from flight following to hard
IFR takes the FSS out of the loop. I have never understood why pilots ignore
the benefits of flight following.

Bob Gardner

"paul kgyy" wrote in message
oups.com...
I was taught that, if I needed to file an IFR flight plan in the middle
of a trip, I should contact FSS first to file and get clearance, then
contact ATC. On the other hand, I hear frequent references in
rec.aviation to pilots who just contact ATC directly. Does this depend
on how busy ATC is - i.e. near Chicago contact FSS, near Moline contact
Moline approach?

Why don't more people use flight following? It distracts them from being
able to enjoy their satellite radio, Bob.

I'm with you; I feel weird flying VFR more than fifteen miles without
talking with ATC for flight following. Being based under a Class B, I see
a lot of benefits to talking with ATC, including being practiced enough to
be able to work with busy approach controllers.

I've heard people asking for radar service from NY Tracon. The people that
make their request well tend to get service. The folks that don't seem to
know where they are and what they want generally aren't as fortunate. If
you practice ATC communication (by getting VFR flight following), you'll
be more comfortable when you need to fly IFR in the system.

-Jack



"Bob Gardner" writes:

Roy has put his finger on it. Transitioning from flight following to hard
IFR takes the FSS out of the loop. I have never understood why pilots ignore
the benefits of flight following.

Bob Gardner

"paul kgyy" wrote in message
roups.com...
I was taught that, if I needed to file an IFR flight plan in the middle
of a trip, I should contact FSS first to file and get clearance, then
contact ATC. On the other hand, I hear frequent references in
rec.aviation to pilots who just contact ATC directly. Does this depend
on how busy ATC is - i.e. near Chicago contact FSS, near Moline contact
Moline approach?

Jack wrote:

Why don't more people use flight following? It distracts them from
being
able to enjoy their satellite radio, Bob.

That is absolutely hilarious, as I did that once. However, ATC made
the decision easy for me since the next approach facility would not
accept my VFR handoff from the previous controller, nor would they
answer my VFR calls, yet their side of the frequency was quiet (at this
particular facility the ocntroller might work two frequencies, but he
transmits on both).

Oh well, I said to my intercom, I guess I will enjoy a few moments of
uninterrupted satellite radio. :-)

--
Peter

: Why don't more people use flight following?

The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that you're likely to
get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace. I've got a friend with a turbo
Arrow that flies along VFR without flight following right over the top of Class C and
Class B at 10500 or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing, that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way. Similarly if
you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get vectored further out.

It's unfortunate, since it discourages people who enjoy the freedom of VFR
from getting additional safety of traffic advisories and being "in the system."

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:
: Why don't more people use flight following?


The biggest reason I've heard (and feel often enough) is that
you're likely to get "vectored" even if clear of controlled airspace.
I've got a friend with a turbo Arrow that flies along VFR without
flight following right over the top of Class C and Class B at 10500
or 11500. If you were to call up approach while doing, that, seems
like 9 times out of 10 they'll vector you 10-20 miles out of the way.
Similarly if you're skirting under an airspace... likely to get
vectored further out.

There's two sides to this.

One is that if you're VFR in Class E airspace, they really don't have
any authority to vector you (I'm sure somebody will come up with some
exception). Sometimes controllers do try to do so anyway, but if you
really don't want to comply, you can just say "cancel flight
following, request frequency change" and go on your fat, dumb, and
happy way.

The other is that if you're doing something like skirting the top of a
Class B by 500 feet and the controller suggests a heading or route to
you, it might just be in both of your best interests to go along with
it. You scratch his back and he'll scratch yours. There's a lot of
heavy metal climbing out the top of a Class B. I don't want to be the
hood ornament on a 747, nor do I want to discover what the wake
turbulence of one feels like.