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#21
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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?
On Wednesday, 9 December 2015 15:46:55 UTC+2, Casey Cox wrote:
I figured that but seeing someone else actually state it helps. The other advantage you missed is Self Launch. I did not realize that Vne limitation became a problem. (Haven't got there yet). I didn't miss the self launch option as one can already purchase self launch gliders new or second hand so there is no particular advantage to a 13.5m self launcher. If I'm not mistaken there is a self-launch option for the LAK 17B FES so FES self-launch is possible on longer wingspan gliders too even if it's not that popular yet. It comes down to cost vs performance and if I had the choice I'd rather spend the money on a second hand, 18m, petrol powered self launcher than on a new 13.5m FES glider simply due to bang-for-buck. But then again I'm one of those types who doesn't replace my vehicle every three years and couldn't care about driving the latest and greatest. I'm sure the 13.5m gliders are plenty of fun to fly. |
#22
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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?
Yes 13.5 gliders are great fun, especially for the recreational pilot.
But the problems with longer span gliders here in Europe are the restrictions imposed by EASA on certified aircraft. With UL, flying costs are lower too - no aerotows, self maintenance, smaller batteries for electric power etc. etc. Used new-design 18m self-launchers are still way more expensive than 13.5m gliders. If cost is not an issue then just wait 3 years for the latest super-yacht! At 05:40 10 December 2015, Surge wrote: On Wednesday, 9 December 2015 15:46:55 UTC+2, Casey Cox wrote: I figured that but seeing someone else actually state it helps. The othe= r advantage you missed is Self Launch. I did not realize that Vne limitati= on became a problem. (Haven't got there yet). I didn't miss the self launch option as one can already purchase self launc= h gliders new or second hand so there is no particular advantage to a 13.5m= self launcher. If I'm not mistaken there is a self-launch option for the LAK 17B FES so FE= S self-launch is possible on longer wingspan gliders too even if it's not t= hat popular yet. It comes down to cost vs performance and if I had the choice I'd rather spe= nd the money on a second hand, 18m, petrol powered self launcher than on a = new 13.5m FES glider simply due to bang-for-buck. But then again I'm one of= those types who doesn't replace my vehicle every three years and couldn't = care about driving the latest and greatest. I'm sure the 13.5m gliders are = plenty of fun to fly. |
#23
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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?
Hi Ben,
I have had a look at some FES (flapped) gliders myself. I tried to consider any reliable non internal combustion engine. Especially FES system is IMO a big step up in safety for flying gliders. The FES system is really well thought out. Below wall of text is highly subjective. For the FES: Ventus 2cxa FES seems like a really nice plane. Not too sure if I like the narrow fuse design. Has had a bit of comp. success (FES version)with Luca and Tilo flying it. I believe you might be able to get a Ventus 2cxa FES within half a year or so but better contact Biggo Berger or your local importer. I would not buy a Ventus 2cxa myself since the "new Ventus" has been announced which would not be a good thing for resale value V2cxa FES. Brings me to the "New Ventus"FES. Looks sexy should perform good. Bad thing is 2.5-3 years wait before delivery. Obviously not proven yet. Is likely to be another 10k in euro's more expense as well. LAK 17b looks like a great ship. Great to have the 21m option as well available. Should be the cheapest option by far. Delivery should be quick. Last few months I have seen 2 Lak17b FES for sale on segelflug.de classifieds. Think asking price was in region of 135k euro for 21m and 120k euro for a new a factory 18m Lak 17b FES. Reason for me for not ordering one is the old fuselage/canopy design and just my inexperience with the plane. 21m option seems nice, but IMO looks wrong on plane with extremely bendy wing. Factory did change hands a few years ago as well. Some people who visited the factory recently were not quite so impressed. Not too sure about resale value of the Lak 17b FES. HPH Shark looks like a really nice plane as well. I did not read any negative stories about this plane expect for the trimmer too quickly unintentionally moved which they fixed. FES seems to really work on this fuselage as the fuse was already slightly longer. So rudder pedals can still be adjusted as far as on non-FES plane (I believe some FES planes have slightly shorter pedal adjustment). Fuselage is for sure the most roomy of the planes available. Quality of HPH is really good (if not the best). Hph has just opened a new factory where the planes are being build. Price wise the Shark is slightly cheaper than the Ventus 2cxa but not much. Delivery times at the moment are Autumn 2016. Very easy to fly. Future might come out with 20m wing tips (moulds have been made). Bad things about the plane are the competition results. I did not find many Sharks winning international competitions. Silent 2 seems quite nice as well. Great bonus to have the self launcher. Obviously bad thing is the performance of the 13.5 vs 18m. The reason I won't buy one is the price. For less than 10k Euro more you can buy a Ventus 2cxa FES or Shark FES. Another bad thing is license requirements at the moment as it is a ultra light plane. This would be resolved in most of Europe with EASE license. Another thing to budget for with FES is the battery replacement. 7k euro + VAT in europe. Batteries could last longer than 10 years. But this depends on the treatment of battery by the user. If you don't use batteries for med long term best to keep at storage voltage and charge in 2 hrs when flying. GP14SE (non-FES) looks like a great plane as well. People who have visited reported very high quality work. If performance is as they put in their specs. 1:45 it could be a game changer. At the moment no track record yet of their elec. self launch system. Price is 25k in euro cheaper than 18m Ventus 2cxa FES and Shark FES. Second hand Antares 20E would as well be a great short term option as the second hand price of a 20E is similar to a new 18m FES plane. 20E has higher performance and is very reliable as well. Batteries if treated well should last 20+ years. Price for new batteries in the region of 24k euro + vat in Europe. On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 10:36:06 PM UTC, wrote: I'm considering the purchase of an 18m FES equipped sailplane, and would like to hear thoughts and opinions about the various options available. I'm seeking a cross country machine with long legs and a highly reliable sustainer. An 18m FES sailplane should fit that requirement nicely. I'm a somewhat green pilot, but in the year or so before a new glider could be manufactured and delivered, I will have accumulated some more experience in my club's DG-505 and DG-1000. I have eliminated the Ventus 2cx as a possibility, due to the aircraft's reputation as being unsuitable for low-time pilots. In the 18m class, that leaves the following gliders that are available with a FES system: - Discus 2c - Lak-17B - HpH 304S Shark All three appear to have similar performance, as best I can tell from published data. I don't plan to be racing any time soon, so a difference of a few points in best glide ratio is not significant to me. According to the flight reports that I've read, all three feature docile handling that should not be a problem for a low-time pilot. The Lak-17B and HpH Shark have flaps. I have thoroughly researched the apparently controversial issue of whether flapped ships are suitable for low-time pilots, and am convinced that they are more of an asset than a liability. In the interests of staying on topic, let's not make this thread about flaps or the FES. These topics have already been thoroughly discussed on RAS. Please start a new thread or add to an old thread if you wish to discuss further. I'll list some of the pros and cons of each ship that I can see, but would love to hear if anyone disagrees with them, or has anything to add. Discus 2c - Pros: Reputation for excellent handling. Optional GRS. Possibly higher resale value and ease of selling due to its popularity. - Cons: No flaps. Lak-17B - Pros: Lower cost (better value) than the other two. Half the lead time of the other two (6 vs 12 mo). - Cons: No safety cockpit. HpH Shark - Pros: Good looking (purely my opinion). - Cons: Every flight review I've read says it handles well but... every reviewer had at least one negative thing to say about the handling. Hard to draw conclusions, but some doubt as been cast in my mind. By now it may be clear which one I'm leaning toward. However, I wouldn't have posted this if my mind wasn't open to others' opinions, so I welcome and appreciate your thoughts. In the end, the decision will come down to what's most important to me: safety and handling. I guess what I'm really seeking is a double-check on my thinking regarding this rather significant purchase. Cheers, Ben |
#24
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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?
On Thursday, 10 December 2015 16:31:35 UTC+2, wrote:
Hi Ben, I have had a look at some FES (flapped) gliders myself. I tried to consider any reliable non internal combustion engine. Especially FES system is IMO a big step up in safety for flying gliders. The FES system is really well thought out. Below wall of text is highly subjective. Excellent wall of text. Lak has announced 13.5m Lak Mini, which comes with FES (self-launching, 60k eur) or Solo 2350 (electric starter, self-launching). Problem with 13.5m gliders is the performance. You are looking at little bit better than index 100 club class (Silent et. al) to maybe LS4 (mini-LAK) to theoretically LS8 (GP14 with comp. fuselage) performance at roughly 100k eur. That puts them competing market filled with used ASH26E, DG-800 etc. with better performance. Used LAK-17A or LAK-19 with retrofitted FES would probably give best price-to-fun-of-flying ratio, if FES is must. Recently Lange&Schleicher introduced electric starter to their Solo sustainers, and now Lak appears to be doing same for LAK-17BT, which is logical as they got to have starter for self-launching Lak Mini. These make Solo systems more safe and easy to use, no need for dive-of-death at low altitude. Food for thought. |
#25
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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?
Retro fit a used glider would be a great option. Difference between the amount of fun had from a used ASW-20 and a JS-1 21 m (as example) is not that much.
This retro fit option is only available in the US under the experimental reg. Price is about 25k euro. Bad news is one year waiting list. It would take about 3 months for installation. I don't know if there are other than LZ that retro fit FES to gliders. Nice development of the starter engine on the ASG 29Es and others. Only problem is they made the (compared to FES) engine even more complicated. Having said that there are many many people around who have had a reliable solo engine for many years. On the long run much cheaper as well as there is no battery to be replaced. Would be great if Schleicher and Jonkers would offer the option of FES for their planes. On Tuesday, December 8, 2015 at 10:36:06 PM UTC, wrote: I'm considering the purchase of an 18m FES equipped sailplane, and would like to hear thoughts and opinions about the various options available. I'm seeking a cross country machine with long legs and a highly reliable sustainer. An 18m FES sailplane should fit that requirement nicely. I'm a somewhat green pilot, but in the year or so before a new glider could be manufactured and delivered, I will have accumulated some more experience in my club's DG-505 and DG-1000. I have eliminated the Ventus 2cx as a possibility, due to the aircraft's reputation as being unsuitable for low-time pilots. In the 18m class, that leaves the following gliders that are available with a FES system: - Discus 2c - Lak-17B - HpH 304S Shark All three appear to have similar performance, as best I can tell from published data. I don't plan to be racing any time soon, so a difference of a few points in best glide ratio is not significant to me. According to the flight reports that I've read, all three feature docile handling that should not be a problem for a low-time pilot. The Lak-17B and HpH Shark have flaps. I have thoroughly researched the apparently controversial issue of whether flapped ships are suitable for low-time pilots, and am convinced that they are more of an asset than a liability. In the interests of staying on topic, let's not make this thread about flaps or the FES. These topics have already been thoroughly discussed on RAS. Please start a new thread or add to an old thread if you wish to discuss further. I'll list some of the pros and cons of each ship that I can see, but would love to hear if anyone disagrees with them, or has anything to add. Discus 2c - Pros: Reputation for excellent handling. Optional GRS. Possibly higher resale value and ease of selling due to its popularity. - Cons: No flaps. Lak-17B - Pros: Lower cost (better value) than the other two. Half the lead time of the other two (6 vs 12 mo). - Cons: No safety cockpit. HpH Shark - Pros: Good looking (purely my opinion). - Cons: Every flight review I've read says it handles well but... every reviewer had at least one negative thing to say about the handling. Hard to draw conclusions, but some doubt as been cast in my mind. By now it may be clear which one I'm leaning toward. However, I wouldn't have posted this if my mind wasn't open to others' opinions, so I welcome and appreciate your thoughts. In the end, the decision will come down to what's most important to me: safety and handling. I guess what I'm really seeking is a double-check on my thinking regarding this rather significant purchase. Cheers, Ben |
#26
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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?
I think they could help arrange meetings and perhaps test flights with current owners. I would certainly want to fly them first. 10x more critical than a car test drive yet few test fly potential glider purchases! At minimum sit in them for an hour or so and get comfortable.
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#27
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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?
That's a good point. Dave Nadlers Anteres 20e is for sale and is ready to go. Probably not much more than a new FES -8 meter glider (maybe less). Self launch, etc. Might be worth a peek!
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#28
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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?
On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:14:37 AM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
That's a good point. Dave Nadlers Anteres 20e is for sale and is ready to go. Probably not much more than a new FES -8 meter glider (maybe less). Self launch, etc. Might be worth a peek! I wonder why the other manufactures have not noted the Antares electric motor and moved to have that as an option. Are there downsides? I thought the Antares showed a lot of original thought. I did not buy one for other reasons though. |
#29
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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?
On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 10:27:55 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I wonder why the other manufactures have not noted the Antares electric motor and moved to have that as an option. Are there downsides? I thought the Antares showed a lot of original thought. I did not buy one for other reasons though. Arcus E uses electric for self launch. From the SH website, "...produced in cooperation with the company Lange Aviation..." |
#30
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Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?
Only slightly off topic:
How is the cockpit ventilation in an FES equipped glider? The big electric motor just behind the vent in the nose must interfere with the airflow. In the D2c, does the swiveling ball vent on the rightside of the cockpit get much airflow? And when the motor is running, how hot does it get in the cockpit when you are getting air that just cooled the motor? |
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