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STAR's and SID's



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 10th 04, 05:51 PM
Mark D
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Default STAR's and SID's

Hi All,

I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck.

I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm
Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our
regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something),
and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you
all might be able to answer.

Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like
Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP).
Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin.

I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones like
the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is
a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you required
to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would
really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could
intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could you
just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or
should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to
file it?

b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something
like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St.
Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there?

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.

Thanks for any input.

Mark


  #2  
Old January 10th 04, 07:01 PM
Ron Rosenfeld
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:51:13 GMT, "Mark D"
wrote:

Hi All,

I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck.

I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm
Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our
regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something),
and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you
all might be able to answer.

Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like
Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP).
Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin.

I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones like
the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is
a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you required
to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would
really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could
intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could you
just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or
should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to
file it?

b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something
like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St.
Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there?

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.

Thanks for any input.

Mark


My replies are "US-centric" g

You are NEVER required to file a SID or a STAR.

In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and most of my
flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around Boston and New York.

Leaving a busy airport, it is not uncommon to receive a SID but, again,
there is NO requirement to file it.

If you do not have the information on board your aircraft to fly the
SID/STAR for the departure/destination airport, include "NO DP" or "NO SID"
or "NO STAR" in the remarks section of your flight plan.

There have been some terminology changes, and SID's are now included in the
more generic term DP. DP's include SID's and ODP's (obstacle departure
procedures).

You should review carefully information on ODP's. You are not required to
fly them if you are flying under Part 91 (in the US -- I don't know what
Canada requires). However, you *may* fly them at your option, even if not
cleared to do so. And if I am unfamiliar with the airport, I will fly a
published ODP in order to assure obstacle clearance. People have crashed
by not being aware of ODP's.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #3  
Old January 10th 04, 09:36 PM
Dan Luke
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote:
In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and
most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around
Boston and New York.


This surprises me, Ron, because I used to get the Trinity One arrival
every time I went to Houston, and I once got a STAR (can't remember
which one) going to Atlanta.

Something has changed at Houston, though: now they just clear me direct
to the Trinity VOR, then vectors.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)


  #4  
Old January 11th 04, 12:21 AM
Ron Rosenfeld
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:36:47 -0600, "Dan Luke"
wrote:

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote:
In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and
most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around
Boston and New York.


This surprises me, Ron, because I used to get the Trinity One arrival
every time I went to Houston, and I once got a STAR (can't remember
which one) going to Atlanta.

Something has changed at Houston, though: now they just clear me direct
to the Trinity VOR, then vectors.


Now that you mention it, I recall other SE pilots saying that they have
frequently received STAR's in the Houston area. I've flown into LGA, BOS,
BWI, DCA and numerous peripheral airports in the NE, though, and never
received a STAR. Maybe they save the STAR's for the faster a/c. I dunno.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #5  
Old January 12th 04, 06:07 PM
Martin Kosina
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Posts: n/a
Default

In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and
most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around
Boston and New York.


This surprises me, Ron, because I used to get the Trinity One arrival
every time I went to Houston, and I once got a STAR (can't remember
which one) going to Atlanta.


I frequently fly between Portland,OR and Seattle and my observation
has been that altitude is what makes a difference between navigating
an airway segment and getting a STAR. Under 10K, the clearance is
usually via an airway, in this case BTG-V23-SEA. But pop above 10,000'
and you suddenly get "direct BTG, resume the Olympia-5 *arrival*" (its
about 150nm or so, so the STAR actually starts at my departure point
;-).

I bet if you divided the "I always get a STAR" and "I never got one"
responses, you might find one of the differences is in the typical
enroute altitudes flown...
  #6  
Old January 13th 04, 03:13 AM
Dan Luke
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Martin Kosina" wrote:
I bet if you divided the "I always get a STAR" and "I never
got one" responses, you might find one of the differences
is in the typical enroute altitudes flown...


In my case, I've been 10,000 every time. Here's how it would happen:
I'd file direct from BFM to EYQ in Houston. About halfway across
Beaumont, TX's airspace, I'd get an amended clearane to my destination
via direct Sabine, Trinity 1 arrival. It got to be so predictable that I
would file direct Sabine, direct EYQ because I knew I'd be going via
Sabine anyway.

When I started going to HOU instead of EYQ, I could file the whole STAR
because HOU is on the STAR plate (EYQ isn't). That worked a couple of
times, but the last two times they amended that. No more STAR, now, just
pieces of it.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)


  #7  
Old January 12th 04, 03:07 PM
Mark Astley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I might add that what you file and what you're cleared for in the NY area
are almost always different, at least until you get used to their preferred
routes (which aren't always the same as those in the back of the AF/D). In
my short time here I've never been given a STAR, but I have been given a DP.
Long story short: even if you file a STAR/DP, you may not get it.

Another poster mentioned it already, but if you'd prefer not to fly a STAR
or DP, then say so in your flight plan when you file. If you forget, and
they give you one in your clearance, say "unable".

blue skies,
mark

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:51:13 GMT, "Mark D"
wrote:

Hi All,

I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck.

I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm
Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our
regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing

something),
and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought

you
all might be able to answer.

Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like
Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP).
Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin.

I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones

like
the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is
a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you

required
to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would
really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could
intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could

you
just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach?

Or
should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to
file it?

b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something
like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St.
Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there?

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR

in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way

of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.

Thanks for any input.

Mark


My replies are "US-centric" g

You are NEVER required to file a SID or a STAR.

In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and most of my
flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around Boston and New York.

Leaving a busy airport, it is not uncommon to receive a SID but, again,
there is NO requirement to file it.

If you do not have the information on board your aircraft to fly the
SID/STAR for the departure/destination airport, include "NO DP" or "NO

SID"
or "NO STAR" in the remarks section of your flight plan.

There have been some terminology changes, and SID's are now included in

the
more generic term DP. DP's include SID's and ODP's (obstacle departure
procedures).

You should review carefully information on ODP's. You are not required to
fly them if you are flying under Part 91 (in the US -- I don't know what
Canada requires). However, you *may* fly them at your option, even if not
cleared to do so. And if I am unfamiliar with the airport, I will fly a
published ODP in order to assure obstacle clearance. People have crashed
by not being aware of ODP's.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)



  #8  
Old January 12th 04, 06:11 PM
Ron Rosenfeld
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:07:41 -0500, "Mark Astley"
wrote:

I might add that what you file and what you're cleared for in the NY area
are almost always different, at least until you get used to their preferred
routes (which aren't always the same as those in the back of the AF/D). In
my short time here I've never been given a STAR, but I have been given a DP.
Long story short: even if you file a STAR/DP, you may not get it.

Another poster mentioned it already, but if you'd prefer not to fly a STAR
or DP, then say so in your flight plan when you file. If you forget, and
they give you one in your clearance, say "unable".

blue skies,
mark


If you file NoSTAR/NoDP, and they want you to fly it, they'll just give you
the clearance "spelled out". In other words, your clearance will be the
verbiage from the DP.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #9  
Old January 10th 04, 09:21 PM
Jeff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

When your flying in, center will tell you which arrival procedure to expect.
The only times I have been given an arrival procedure so far is when I fly into
southern california. LA center tells me which arrival procedure (which is ziggy3
when going into chino and that area) and also tells me which approach I am to
expect then hands me off to SoCal.

Anytime I fly somewhere tho I check the STARS to see which one of any, will
apply to me so I can be ready for it. Going into southern california I know they
will tell me to use ziggy3 which starts at the hector VOR so I always use hector
in my flight plan.

Mark D wrote:

Hi All,

I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck.

I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm
Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our
regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something),
and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you
all might be able to answer.

Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like
Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP).
Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin.

I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones like
the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is
a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you required
to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would
really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could
intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could you
just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or
should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to
file it?

b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something
like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St.
Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there?

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.

Thanks for any input.

Mark


  #10  
Old January 11th 04, 01:16 AM
Hankal
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Posts: n/a
Default

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating


When I file my IFR flight plan I put into remarks NO STARS NO SIP
Hank
 




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