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#1
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STAR's and SID's
Hi All,
I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck. I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something), and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you all might be able to answer. Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP). Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin. I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones like the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you required to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could you just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to file it? b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St. Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there? What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of navigating direct (GPS), etc. Thanks for any input. Mark |
#2
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On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:51:13 GMT, "Mark D"
wrote: Hi All, I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck. I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something), and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you all might be able to answer. Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP). Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin. I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones like the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you required to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could you just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to file it? b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St. Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there? What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of navigating direct (GPS), etc. Thanks for any input. Mark My replies are "US-centric" g You are NEVER required to file a SID or a STAR. In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around Boston and New York. Leaving a busy airport, it is not uncommon to receive a SID but, again, there is NO requirement to file it. If you do not have the information on board your aircraft to fly the SID/STAR for the departure/destination airport, include "NO DP" or "NO SID" or "NO STAR" in the remarks section of your flight plan. There have been some terminology changes, and SID's are now included in the more generic term DP. DP's include SID's and ODP's (obstacle departure procedures). You should review carefully information on ODP's. You are not required to fly them if you are flying under Part 91 (in the US -- I don't know what Canada requires). However, you *may* fly them at your option, even if not cleared to do so. And if I am unfamiliar with the airport, I will fly a published ODP in order to assure obstacle clearance. People have crashed by not being aware of ODP's. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#3
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"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote:
In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around Boston and New York. This surprises me, Ron, because I used to get the Trinity One arrival every time I went to Houston, and I once got a STAR (can't remember which one) going to Atlanta. Something has changed at Houston, though: now they just clear me direct to the Trinity VOR, then vectors. -- Dan C172RG at BFM (remove pants to reply by email) |
#4
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On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:36:47 -0600, "Dan Luke"
wrote: "Ron Rosenfeld" wrote: In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around Boston and New York. This surprises me, Ron, because I used to get the Trinity One arrival every time I went to Houston, and I once got a STAR (can't remember which one) going to Atlanta. Something has changed at Houston, though: now they just clear me direct to the Trinity VOR, then vectors. Now that you mention it, I recall other SE pilots saying that they have frequently received STAR's in the Houston area. I've flown into LGA, BOS, BWI, DCA and numerous peripheral airports in the NE, though, and never received a STAR. Maybe they save the STAR's for the faster a/c. I dunno. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#5
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In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and
most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around Boston and New York. This surprises me, Ron, because I used to get the Trinity One arrival every time I went to Houston, and I once got a STAR (can't remember which one) going to Atlanta. I frequently fly between Portland,OR and Seattle and my observation has been that altitude is what makes a difference between navigating an airway segment and getting a STAR. Under 10K, the clearance is usually via an airway, in this case BTG-V23-SEA. But pop above 10,000' and you suddenly get "direct BTG, resume the Olympia-5 *arrival*" (its about 150nm or so, so the STAR actually starts at my departure point ;-). I bet if you divided the "I always get a STAR" and "I never got one" responses, you might find one of the differences is in the typical enroute altitudes flown... |
#6
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"Martin Kosina" wrote:
I bet if you divided the "I always get a STAR" and "I never got one" responses, you might find one of the differences is in the typical enroute altitudes flown... In my case, I've been 10,000 every time. Here's how it would happen: I'd file direct from BFM to EYQ in Houston. About halfway across Beaumont, TX's airspace, I'd get an amended clearane to my destination via direct Sabine, Trinity 1 arrival. It got to be so predictable that I would file direct Sabine, direct EYQ because I knew I'd be going via Sabine anyway. When I started going to HOU instead of EYQ, I could file the whole STAR because HOU is on the STAR plate (EYQ isn't). That worked a couple of times, but the last two times they amended that. No more STAR, now, just pieces of it. -- Dan C172RG at BFM (remove pants to reply by email) |
#7
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I might add that what you file and what you're cleared for in the NY area
are almost always different, at least until you get used to their preferred routes (which aren't always the same as those in the back of the AF/D). In my short time here I've never been given a STAR, but I have been given a DP. Long story short: even if you file a STAR/DP, you may not get it. Another poster mentioned it already, but if you'd prefer not to fly a STAR or DP, then say so in your flight plan when you file. If you forget, and they give you one in your clearance, say "unable". blue skies, mark "Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message ... On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:51:13 GMT, "Mark D" wrote: Hi All, I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck. I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something), and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you all might be able to answer. Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP). Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin. I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones like the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you required to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could you just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to file it? b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St. Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there? What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of navigating direct (GPS), etc. Thanks for any input. Mark My replies are "US-centric" g You are NEVER required to file a SID or a STAR. In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around Boston and New York. Leaving a busy airport, it is not uncommon to receive a SID but, again, there is NO requirement to file it. If you do not have the information on board your aircraft to fly the SID/STAR for the departure/destination airport, include "NO DP" or "NO SID" or "NO STAR" in the remarks section of your flight plan. There have been some terminology changes, and SID's are now included in the more generic term DP. DP's include SID's and ODP's (obstacle departure procedures). You should review carefully information on ODP's. You are not required to fly them if you are flying under Part 91 (in the US -- I don't know what Canada requires). However, you *may* fly them at your option, even if not cleared to do so. And if I am unfamiliar with the airport, I will fly a published ODP in order to assure obstacle clearance. People have crashed by not being aware of ODP's. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#8
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On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:07:41 -0500, "Mark Astley"
wrote: I might add that what you file and what you're cleared for in the NY area are almost always different, at least until you get used to their preferred routes (which aren't always the same as those in the back of the AF/D). In my short time here I've never been given a STAR, but I have been given a DP. Long story short: even if you file a STAR/DP, you may not get it. Another poster mentioned it already, but if you'd prefer not to fly a STAR or DP, then say so in your flight plan when you file. If you forget, and they give you one in your clearance, say "unable". blue skies, mark If you file NoSTAR/NoDP, and they want you to fly it, they'll just give you the clearance "spelled out". In other words, your clearance will be the verbiage from the DP. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#9
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When your flying in, center will tell you which arrival procedure to expect.
The only times I have been given an arrival procedure so far is when I fly into southern california. LA center tells me which arrival procedure (which is ziggy3 when going into chino and that area) and also tells me which approach I am to expect then hands me off to SoCal. Anytime I fly somewhere tho I check the STARS to see which one of any, will apply to me so I can be ready for it. Going into southern california I know they will tell me to use ziggy3 which starts at the hector VOR so I always use hector in my flight plan. Mark D wrote: Hi All, I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck. I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something), and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you all might be able to answer. Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP). Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin. I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones like the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you required to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could you just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to file it? b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St. Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there? What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of navigating direct (GPS), etc. Thanks for any input. Mark |
#10
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What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of navigating When I file my IFR flight plan I put into remarks NO STARS NO SIP Hank |
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