STAR's and SID's

I tried that one time out of North Las Vegas, the tower told me that I have a
choise of doing the SID or waiting untill Las Vegas International stoped the
incomming and out going flights for me. I left VFR and picked up my clearence in
the air.

Now I usually pick up my clearence in the air unless I need it to get in the air.



Hankal wrote:

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating

When I file my IFR flight plan I put into remarks NO STARS NO SIP
Hank

the north las vegas Northtown1 departure is a pain in the ass.
you have to go out like 10 miles towards mountain, the last time I did it the
turbulence was so bad I thought it would tear my plane apart. then you turn back
in towards LAS and hopefully LAS approach will pick you up and give you vectors
out.


Brad Z wrote:

I'm curious. I know pilots who make a habit of including the "NO STARs NO
SIDs" comment on the flight plan. I have flown both STARs and SIDs...what's
so bad about them?

"Hankal" wrote in message
...
What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR
in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way
of
navigating

When I file my IFR flight plan I put into remarks NO STARS NO SIP
Hank

In article ,
(Hankal) wrote:

When I file my IFR flight plan I put into remarks NO STARS NO SIP

Why do you do this?

The AIM (section 5-2-6-e-8) says:

"ATC must be immediately advised if the pilot does not possess the
assigned SID, or the aircraft is not capable of flying the SID.
Notification may be accomplished by filing "NO SID" in the remarks
section of the filed flight plan"

Given that SIDs are published in both the NOS and Jepp books, it's hard
to believe you would not posses them. I can see the aircraft being
incapable of flying some particular SID (not having the right nav
equipment or sufficient climb performance), but it sounds like you just
blanket turn down all SID assignments. This I don't understand.

I once did have to turn down a SID because I couldn't fly it. Leaving
Miami for Key West in a 172, I got some SID that looked like it required
DME, which I didn't have, so I told the controller. He hemmed and hawed
for a while, and eventually came back with, "I tell ya' what, ammend
your clearance, you are cleared to Key West via radar vectors direct,
enjoy your flight". That's about 400 miles worth of radar vectors. I
then told him that I wanted to follow the island chain down to avoid the
long overwater. He said, "Yeah, no problem, just do what you need to
and let us know where you're going" or something like that.

They don't do clearances like that in the northeast :-)

FWIW, SIDs and STARs are issued routinely to all flights in Europe. SIDs
are usually flown as depicted with the occasional approved shortcut, whereas
in my experience ATC usually vectors you off STARs fairly early as they're
oriented towards holding fixes and procedural approaches. Life may be
different at the "majors" such as Heathrow, where holding is usual.

Generalizing a little, I guess the reason for the difference between that
and GA ops in the US may be that IAFs for approaches in Europe are less
frequently enroute navaids. They're usually just on-airport beacons. Thus
STARs tend to act as feeder routes.

Julian Scarfe

If they want you to follow a SID and you have stated NO SIDS, as far as ATC
is concerned you do not have the graphical representation in the
cockpit...and they will just tell you what to do. You don't escape flying
the procedure.

Bob Gardner

"Hankal" wrote in message
...
What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR
in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way
of
navigating

When I file my IFR flight plan I put into remarks NO STARS NO SIP
Hank

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:FkkMb.27887$I06.187743@attbi_s01...

If they want you to follow a SID and you have stated NO SIDS, as far as
ATC
is concerned you do not have the graphical representation in the
cockpit...and they will just tell you what to do. You don't escape flying
the procedure.


Do you also state, NO SIAPS?

"Mark D" wrote in message news:lYWLb.48857$ts4.47193@pd7tw3no...

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.

The real world implications for me have always been quite tame. I
have flown my light twin under Instrument Flight Rules in all corners
of the U.S., poked over the dotted line into Canada, and routinely fly
through some of the busiest airspace in the country. The procedures
everywhere are the same; the 'local customs' might be different. The
difference is subtle.

For instance, I am quite familiar with arrival and departure
procedures into the Orlando area, naturally. That's where I live.
I'm also quite familiar with terminal airspace in Phoenix, Denver, Los
Angeles, San Diego, Atlanta, Charlotte, and New York. Procedurally
there are no surprises. The amount of latitude you're granted may
vary. I can negotiate with just about everyone, but I won't always
get what I want.

GPS makes things a lot easier. I did a fair amount of needle and DME
flying before my airplane transformed into /G. If controllers ask if
you can navigate direct to a fix and you can, say yes. Don't read too
much into it. A handheld VFR GPS to assist with "situational
awareness" in such instances is nice.

I am frequently assigned the LEESE ONE arrival (LEESE.LEESE1) into
Orlando from the northwest. I have never actually flown it. I can't
comment on whether the turbojet inbounds use it or not. It's a lost
comm CYA for the approach controller. In IFR flying, there are lots
of procedures in place which, in practice, are just used as lost comm
safeties.

If you can react reasonably quickly and can keep a nominal airspeed on
approach (I've flown ILSs at 150 knots) chances are you'll slip right
in to the nation's busiest airports with nary a problem. Work with
the controller. You might get looped back around onto final once or
more times. Roll with it.

The hardest part is sometimes the ground taxi at certain large
airports. I find that to be more stressful than the flight. Have an
airport diagram ready and do not hesitate to ask for clarification if
there is any confusion whatsoever.

Best,

Ryan

I might add that what you file and what you're cleared for in the NY area
are almost always different, at least until you get used to their preferred
routes (which aren't always the same as those in the back of the AF/D). In
my short time here I've never been given a STAR, but I have been given a DP.
Long story short: even if you file a STAR/DP, you may not get it.

Another poster mentioned it already, but if you'd prefer not to fly a STAR
or DP, then say so in your flight plan when you file. If you forget, and
they give you one in your clearance, say "unable".

blue skies,
mark

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:51:13 GMT, "Mark D"
wrote:

Hi All,

I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck.

I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm
Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our
regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing
something),
and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought
you
all might be able to answer.

Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like
Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP).
Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin.

I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones
like
the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is
a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you
required
to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would
really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could
intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could
you
just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach?
Or
should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to
file it?

b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something
like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St.
Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there?

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR
in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way
of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.

Thanks for any input.

Mark


My replies are "US-centric" g

You are NEVER required to file a SID or a STAR.

In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and most of my
flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around Boston and New York.

Leaving a busy airport, it is not uncommon to receive a SID but, again,
there is NO requirement to file it.

If you do not have the information on board your aircraft to fly the
SID/STAR for the departure/destination airport, include "NO DP" or "NO
SID"
or "NO STAR" in the remarks section of your flight plan.

There have been some terminology changes, and SID's are now included in
the
more generic term DP. DP's include SID's and ODP's (obstacle departure
procedures).

You should review carefully information on ODP's. You are not required to
fly them if you are flying under Part 91 (in the US -- I don't know what
Canada requires). However, you *may* fly them at your option, even if not
cleared to do so. And if I am unfamiliar with the airport, I will fly a
published ODP in order to assure obstacle clearance. People have crashed
by not being aware of ODP's.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and
most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around
Boston and New York.

This surprises me, Ron, because I used to get the Trinity One arrival
every time I went to Houston, and I once got a STAR (can't remember
which one) going to Atlanta.

I frequently fly between Portland,OR and Seattle and my observation
has been that altitude is what makes a difference between navigating
an airway segment and getting a STAR. Under 10K, the clearance is
usually via an airway, in this case BTG-V23-SEA. But pop above 10,000'
and you suddenly get "direct BTG, resume the Olympia-5 *arrival*" (its
about 150nm or so, so the STAR actually starts at my departure point
;-).

I bet if you divided the "I always get a STAR" and "I never got one"
responses, you might find one of the differences is in the typical
enroute altitudes flown...

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:07:41 -0500, "Mark Astley"
wrote:

I might add that what you file and what you're cleared for in the NY area
are almost always different, at least until you get used to their preferred
routes (which aren't always the same as those in the back of the AF/D). In
my short time here I've never been given a STAR, but I have been given a DP.
Long story short: even if you file a STAR/DP, you may not get it.

Another poster mentioned it already, but if you'd prefer not to fly a STAR
or DP, then say so in your flight plan when you file. If you forget, and
they give you one in your clearance, say "unable".

blue skies,
mark


If you file NoSTAR/NoDP, and they want you to fly it, they'll just give you
the clearance "spelled out". In other words, your clearance will be the
verbiage from the DP.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)