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Why Airplanes Fly - Voids Above A Planar Sheet
Hi,
The title of this post implies that I know why airplanes fly. I don't, not completely at least. But I do know that I have read a lot of "official" explanations that are just plain wrong. Before I begin my exposition about what keeps the plane afloat, I would like anyone who care to participate in this discussion to do a couple of simple experiments. This will get us all on the same page (no pun intended, heh): We are all familiar with the "blow-over-sheet-of-paper" trick to illustrate Bernouilli's principle. That trick is actually has more going on than Bernouilli's princinple, but I am going to avoid talking about it until we can all at least agree on the concepts of voids and pressures. Let us do an experiment that uses not one but two sheets of paper. EXPERIMENT 1: Take two sheets of paper. Superpose one on top of the other on a desk, perfectly aligned. Then carefully grab the edges of the top sheet with both hands, gripping the edges between your palms, but making sure to keep the top sheet as close to the bottom sheet as possible, including the edges. The closer, the better. It helps to grab long-wise, not short-wise. Try to grab as much edge as possibe. Now take a breath... In one quick motion, yank up the top sheet. Watch what happens to the bottom sheet. It follows the top sheet for a brief moment. EXPERIMENT 2: Do the same as EXPERIMENT 1, but be creative. Instead of simply yanking upward, move in a nice fluid-but-fast motion all around the room. If you are careful, you should be able to make some nice, gracious curves, keeping the bottom sheet intact. Some of you might find it hard to believe, but with the right contraption, you could actually keep two pieces of cardboard stuck together like this, dragging one with the other all over the room, even though there is no glue or any other adhesive binding the two. There is one important lesson to be learned from these experiments, especially the 1st. Bernoulli's Principle has nothing to do with this. Bernoulli's principle has to do with air flow that is *coplanar* with the surface under discussion. Bernoulli's principle has to do with gases that are flowing in a direction that is perpendicular to the normal vector of the surface over which it flows. When you yank the top paper to lure the bottom paper, you are moving in a direction that is *colinear* to this normal vector. Simply stated, if you do not move sideways *at all*, but only outward, away from the paper, you will STILL cause the bottom sheet to follow. I will leave it to the reader to explain why the bottom sheet follows the top sheet. -Le Chaud Lapin- |
#2
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Why Airplanes Fly - Voids Above A Planar Sheet
Le Chaud Lapin wrote in
ups.com: Hi, The title of this post implies that I know why airplanes fly. I don't, not completely at least. But I do know that I have read a lot of "official" explanations that are just plain wrong. Before I begin my exposition about what keeps the plane afloat, I would like anyone who care to participate in this discussion to do a couple of simple experiments. Good grief.. Bertie |
#3
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Why Airplanes Fly - Voids Above A Planar Sheet
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Le Chaud Lapin wrote in ups.com: Hi, The title of this post implies that I know why airplanes fly. I don't, not completely at least. But I do know that I have read a lot of "official" explanations that are just plain wrong. Before I begin my exposition about what keeps the plane afloat, I would like anyone who care to participate in this discussion to do a couple of simple experiments. Good grief.. .... Charlie Brown. |
#4
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Why Airplanes Fly - Voids Above A Planar Sheet
Everyone knows that the only thing that keeps an airplane in the air
is......... $$$$$$$ There is one important lesson to be learned from these experiments, Yes there is. You are an idiot. Randy L. -- "When making an emergency off-field landing at night, turn on your landing light just prior to touchdown. If you don't like what you see, then turn off the landing lights." "Le Chaud Lapin" wrote in message ups.com... Hi, (snip) -Le Chaud Lapin- |
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Why Airplanes Fly - Voids Above A Planar Sheet
"RandyL" wrote in message ... Everyone knows that the only thing that keeps an airplane in the air is......... $$$$$$$ There is one important lesson to be learned from these experiments, Yes there is. You are an idiot. Randy L. -- "When making an emergency off-field landing at night, turn on your landing light just prior to touchdown. If you don't like what you see, then turn off the landing lights." "Le Chaud Lapin" wrote in message ups.com... Hi, (snip) -Le Chaud Lapin- OK -- everyone has been dancing all around this. The thing that keeps an airplane up is the WINGS! Once again, more slowly---------the WWWIIIIIINNNNNGGGGSSSS! No wings - no flying. With no wings you don't have an airPLANE, you have a rocket (or a bomb, depending on which way it's going). Any bee knows this. Most birds know this and they have bird brains. |
#6
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Why Airplanes Fly - Voids Above A Planar Sheet
If "Getting on the same page" means learning some of the physics of
flying, I'd enjoy knowing how these 'experiments' are related. Are you suggesting that a table top under the paper is in any way representative of what goes on in a dynamic airfoil? Are you really educated as an engineer? |
#7
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Why Airplanes Fly - Voids Above A Planar Sheet
On Oct 4, 9:13 am, Tina wrote:
If "Getting on the same page" means learning some of the physics of flying, I'd enjoy knowing how these 'experiments' are related. Are you suggesting that a table top under the paper is in any way representative of what goes on in a dynamic airfoil? Well I was trying to illustrate what goes on between the two sheets of paper, but I guess a table will do. Technically, if you place one sheet of paper on top a table, and yank up hard on the paper, there will be a tendency for the table to lift off the ground, but since the mass of table is so great, the net pressure upward on table is not enough to counteract gravity so the table remains at rest (actually, at a quantum level it does not completely "not move", but for our purpose we can say that it doesn't). So I used two sheets of paper because the bottom paper will rise. So yes, I believe this experiment illustrates an important phenomenon in aerodynamics. It is not the only phenomenon that plays a role, but it has one, nevertheless. The decriptions of lift that I read in flight books seem to ignore it. This weekend I am going to download material on aerodynamics and read what it says. There is another experiment that could demonstrate this principle more dramatically, using an actual airplane wing: SMOKING CIGARETTES/AIRPLANE WING EXPERIMENT: I would take an airplane wing, and mount it rails that can move in the forward and aft directions along what would be the longitudinal axis of the airplane if if the wing were so attached. Then I would take a bunch of cigarettes, light them, and hang them up-side-down from a high ceiling above the wing of the aircraft. The wing would have an exaggerated AoA, say 30%, no flaps, displaced slightly so that it is ahead of the hanging cigarettes, but so that the cigarettles cannot touch. The cigarettes would be lit so that stream of smoke floats upward. Then I would use a tremendous force applied to move the wing forward along the rails, say, by linear induction motor, or whatever, to move the wing forward, being careful that the apparutus doing so is already ahead of the wing and connected by steel wire to minimize interference effects. You would see that, if the impulse is great enough, not only would the smoke be diverted from upward and moved in the direction that the wing went (forward), but the hanging cigarettes themselves would move. If flat pressure sensors were mounted above the wing, close to the trailing edge, they would show a momentary decrease in pressure. If flat pressure sensors were mounted below the wing, close to the trailing edge, they would show a momentary increase in pressure. After the force stops, there would be relaxation where the rarefication above the wing and compression below the wing are elminiated by flows due to the pressure gradient. In a real airplane, this is what is happening, but because the the wing is constantly moving foward, the rarefication above the wingg and the compression below the wing are never quite normalized by to normal atmosphere. The downwash above wing is due to air rushing in to fill the void. SMOKING CIGARETTE/HARD-COVER BOOK EXPERIMENT: There is an similar, not-as-dramatic experiment you can do at home that is closely related to experiment above. Let a piece of stiff cardboard be your wing. Hold it from the side at an angle of attack, as above, but don't rest your arm on top of a table. That would create a boundary condition beneath the wing. Light a cigarette and inverted so that it is the hot part is near the top of the wing, so where in middle between leading and trailing edge. Get your arm out of the way of the void that is about to be created. Now, in one quick motion, move the cardboard forward. Notice the tremendous net impulse force that is generated on the cardboard. The smoke will follow. These things are happening in flight, along with Bernoulli. Are you really educated as an engineer? Yes, electrical/software. -Le Chaud Lapin- |
#8
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Why Airplanes Fly - Voids Above A Planar Sheet
"Le Chaud Lapin" wrote... On Oct 4, 9:13 am, Tina wrote: If "Getting on the same page" means learning some of the physics of flying, I'd enjoy knowing how these 'experiments' are related. Are you suggesting that a table top under the paper is in any way representative of what goes on in a dynamic airfoil? Well I was trying to illustrate what goes on between the two sheets of paper, but I guess a table will do. Technically, if you place one sheet of paper on top a table, and yank up hard on the paper, there will be a tendency for the table to lift off the ground, but since the mass of table is so great, the net pressure upward on table is not enough to counteract gravity so the table remains at rest (actually, at a quantum level it does not completely "not move", but for our purpose we can say that it doesn't). So I used two sheets of paper because the bottom paper will rise. So yes, I believe this experiment illustrates an important phenomenon in aerodynamics. It is not the only phenomenon that plays a role, but it has one, nevertheless. The decriptions of lift that I read in flight books seem to ignore it. This weekend I am going to download material on aerodynamics and read what it says. There is another experiment that could demonstrate this principle more dramatically, using an actual airplane wing: SMOKING CIGARETTES/AIRPLANE WING EXPERIMENT: I would take an airplane wing, and mount it rails that can move in the forward and aft directions along what would be the longitudinal axis of the airplane if if the wing were so attached. Then I would take a bunch of cigarettes, light them, and hang them up-side-down from a high ceiling above the wing of the aircraft. The wing would have an exaggerated AoA, say 30%, no flaps, displaced slightly so that it is ahead of the hanging cigarettes, but so that the cigarettles cannot touch. The cigarettes would be lit so that stream of smoke floats upward. Then I would use a tremendous force applied to move the wing forward along the rails, say, by linear induction motor, or whatever, to move the wing forward, being careful that the apparutus doing so is already ahead of the wing and connected by steel wire to minimize interference effects. You would see that, if the impulse is great enough, not only would the smoke be diverted from upward and moved in the direction that the wing went (forward), but the hanging cigarettes themselves would move. If flat pressure sensors were mounted above the wing, close to the trailing edge, they would show a momentary decrease in pressure. If flat pressure sensors were mounted below the wing, close to the trailing edge, they would show a momentary increase in pressure. After the force stops, there would be relaxation where the rarefication above the wing and compression below the wing are elminiated by flows due to the pressure gradient. In a real airplane, this is what is happening, but because the the wing is constantly moving foward, the rarefication above the wingg and the compression below the wing are never quite normalized by to normal atmosphere. The downwash above wing is due to air rushing in to fill the void. SMOKING CIGARETTE/HARD-COVER BOOK EXPERIMENT: There is an similar, not-as-dramatic experiment you can do at home that is closely related to experiment above. Let a piece of stiff cardboard be your wing. Hold it from the side at an angle of attack, as above, but don't rest your arm on top of a table. That would create a boundary condition beneath the wing. Light a cigarette and inverted so that it is the hot part is near the top of the wing, so where in middle between leading and trailing edge. Get your arm out of the way of the void that is about to be created. Now, in one quick motion, move the cardboard forward. Notice the tremendous net impulse force that is generated on the cardboard. The smoke will follow. These things are happening in flight, along with Bernoulli. Are you really educated as an engineer? Yes, electrical/software. -Le Chaud Lapin- Are you crazy?! Do you know what cigarettes cost these days??!! BDS |
#9
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Why Airplanes Fly - Voids Above A Planar Sheet
"Le Chaud Lapin" wrote in message ps.com... So yes, I believe this experiment illustrates an important phenomenon in aerodynamics. It is not the only phenomenon that plays a role, but it has one, nevertheless. The decriptions of lift that I read in flight books seem to ignore it. Subsequently, all the airplanes are falling from the sky. I recommend building an airplane sometime. The ultimate way to prove your theory is to be like the Wright Brothers; build it and fly it. Folks on this forum have logged hundreds of thousands if not millions of collective hours and all of them have put their asses on the line based on the aerodynamic principles in books, so you're not going to get much respect here if you want everybody to do experiments just to discuss to your otherwise-unproven theories. Some people here have built their own planes, or engineered airplanes, or maintained them so -their- science is sufficiently proven. All the discussions and textbooks and usenet theories in the world aren't worth your first solo flight around the pattern. That demonstrates that the aerospace engineers proved their wing design and that the pilots here proved their ability to manipulate that technology. That's what it takes. About once a month somebody comes in here and wants to talk about how aerospace science is all wrong but the thing is, none of 'em ever seems to have flown an airplane. If you don't do their math for them just the way they want you to, however, somehow it's all the pilots and plane builders out here who don't know what they're talking about. I think your theory would be great put into practice on an experimental aircraft. I promise you, if you fly it they will come. Best of luck to you. -c |
#10
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Why Airplanes Fly - Voids Above A Planar Sheet
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:36:55 -0700, "Gatt"
wrote: "Le Chaud Lapin" wrote in message ups.com... So yes, I believe this experiment illustrates an important phenomenon in aerodynamics. It is not the only phenomenon that plays a role, but it has one, nevertheless. The decriptions of lift that I read in flight books seem to ignore it. Subsequently, all the airplanes are falling from the sky. I recommend building an airplane sometime. The ultimate way to prove your theory is to be like the Wright Brothers; build it and fly it. Folks on this forum have logged hundreds of thousands if not millions of collective hours and all of them have put their asses on the line based on the aerodynamic principles in books, so you're not going to get much respect here if you want everybody to do experiments just to discuss to your otherwise-unproven theories. Some people here have built their own planes, or engineered airplanes, or maintained them so -their- science is sufficiently proven. All the discussions and textbooks and usenet theories in the world aren't worth your first solo flight around the pattern. That demonstrates that the aerospace engineers proved their wing design and that the pilots here proved their ability to manipulate that technology. That's what it takes. About once a month somebody comes in here and wants to talk about how aerospace science is all wrong but the thing is, none of 'em ever seems to have flown an airplane. If you don't do their math for them just the way they want you to, however, somehow it's all the pilots and plane builders out here who don't know what they're talking about. I think your theory would be great put into practice on an experimental aircraft. I promise you, if you fly it they will come. Best of luck to you. -c I will first admit I haven't done the experiments outlined in Lapin's posts. I will second admit that airplanes do fly. Thirdly I will admit there are many very good reference books on "why" airplanes fly. The key word here is "why". The fact that people can design and build a machine that flies, means they have mastered the elements of design that allow an aircraft to fly. It doesn't mean they know "why" it flies. There are accepted theories, disproved theories, questionable theories and unproven theories, but they are all theories. Le Chaud Lapin has posted some experiments that in their present form exhibit some interesting characteristics. Whether or not these characteristics can be extrapolated to winged aircraft remains to be seen. Certainly further, much more complex, testing would have to be done. However, that fact should not provoke the kind of vitriolic attacks I've seen in this forum. Just because someone posts something outside the box of conventional thinking is no reason to attack them. Ron Kelley |
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