Death of the 13.5m class?

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 9:58:16 PM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 4:50:23 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:

Imagine a scoring system where you get 5 minutes added to your time on course for every minute you run your MOP. If you did a 4 knot climb under power for 15 minutes to get home it would cost you about an incremental hour, so you'd only be inclined to use it when the alternative is landing out.


Easy fix. Since the motor is to prevent the land-out score it this way:

Starting Motor = Land Out.

The benefit is avoiding the inconvenience of the land out. Back to the airport in time for BBQ and beer, hope for better the next day.


Solution = don't ever change anything. Okaaaay.

I think you missed the point. The idea is to not have to score miles versus MPH by avoiding being scored as a landout entirely. The idea of a split between speed and distance points is arbitrary so this would reduce that randomness.

New ideas are initially hard to grasp so people tend to resist them.

9B

On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 19:00:49 -0800, Andy Blackburn wrote:

I promise you - landing out will never be banned.

It is or was banned in Japan.

Some years back an e-mail friend, an American resident there, told me
about a police helicopter operating in Gunma Prefecture, which is in the
middle of Honshu, the main Japanese island and quite a hilly region. It
was caught out by low cloud and thickening mist, so made a precautionary
landing on a river bank while they waited for the vis to improve. Its
crew were arrested for the illegal land-out.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie
| dot org

I cannot get the .aero link to work. Does anyone have an alternate? Link "doesn't exist or has been moved"

You mean using the engine or motor is /_not_/ scored as a land out?Â*
Seems pretty obvious to me.Â* Give the poor bloke a participation trophy
for the day and move on.Â* Oh, and fix such a dumb over sight.

On 12/23/2017 10:58 PM, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 4:50:23 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:

Imagine a scoring system where you get 5 minutes added to your time on course for every minute you run your MOP. If you did a 4 knot climb under power for 15 minutes to get home it would cost you about an incremental hour, so you'd only be inclined to use it when the alternative is landing out.

Easy fix. Since the motor is to prevent the land-out score it this way:

Starting Motor = Land Out.

The benefit is avoiding the inconvenience of the land out. Back to the airport in time for BBQ and beer, hope for better the next day.

--
Dan, 5J


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If not having an engine would have resulted in a land out, having one
should not have a different result if it is used.Â* Use all the
justifications you want about randomness, etc., but you can't alter that
simple truth.Â* Just one more reason that I tend to avoid anything which
is "organized".

On 12/24/2017 12:47 AM, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 9:58:16 PM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 4:50:23 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:

Imagine a scoring system where you get 5 minutes added to your time on course for every minute you run your MOP. If you did a 4 knot climb under power for 15 minutes to get home it would cost you about an incremental hour, so you'd only be inclined to use it when the alternative is landing out.

Easy fix. Since the motor is to prevent the land-out score it this way:

Starting Motor = Land Out.

The benefit is avoiding the inconvenience of the land out. Back to the airport in time for BBQ and beer, hope for better the next day.

Solution = don't ever change anything. Okaaaay.

I think you missed the point. The idea is to not have to score miles versus MPH by avoiding being scored as a landout entirely. The idea of a split between speed and distance points is arbitrary so this would reduce that randomness.

New ideas are initially hard to grasp so people tend to resist them.

9B

--
Dan, 5J

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For the 2019 13.5m WGC, all gliders participating will be required to have electric motors and be capable of self launching. Potentially being allowed to use some of the electric energy in flight will lead to some interesting tasking and flights I think. I would not consider it to be "Soaring" though.

On Sunday, December 24, 2017 at 10:16:53 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
If not having an engine would have resulted in a land out, having one
should not have a different result if it is used.Â* Use all the
justifications you want about randomness, etc., but you can't alter that
simple truth.Â* Just one more reason that I tend to avoid anything which
is "organized".

On 12/24/2017 12:47 AM, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 9:58:16 PM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 4:50:23 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:

Imagine a scoring system where you get 5 minutes added to your time on course for every minute you run your MOP. If you did a 4 knot climb under power for 15 minutes to get home it would cost you about an incremental hour, so you'd only be inclined to use it when the alternative is landing out.

For the 2019 13.5m WGC, all gliders participating will be required to have electric motors and be capable of self launching. Potentially being allowed to use some of the electric energy in flight will lead to some interesting tasking and flights I think. I would not consider it to be "Soaring" though.

At the risk of initiating terminal thread drift (I blame last evening's latest
snow and overnight's -4F!) such
(scoring-continued-after-electrically-powered-propulsion) tasking would be a
sort of bureaucratic initiative exemplifying: a) a bureaucracy exceeding its
original r'aison d'etre, perhaps even (gasp!) to perpetuating itself over
actually promoting "soaring"; b) an active step diminishing its relevance (at
least in the eyes of some of the great unwashed who might otherwise see in
said bureaucracies, elements of genuine value to "the sport of soaring").
Thankfully IGC has only a voluntary constituency!

Bob W.

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At 17:28 24 December 2017, Tony wrote:
For the 2019 13.5m WGC, all gliders participating will be required
to have
=
electric motors and be capable of self launching. Potentially being
allowed=
to use some of the electric energy in flight will lead to some
interesting=
tasking and flights I think. I would not consider it to be "Soaring"
thoug=
h.


13.5m WGC may not be 13.5m WGC.


The IGC are currently working on a set of ‘E-concept’ rules for
gliders equipped with electric means of propulsion (MOP) in
competitions.

The idea is to allow use of limited amounts of electric power to
improve the glider's performance or to gain altitude. The first test
event will be at Pavullo in Italy in September 2018.

If the proposal is accepted, a new event will replace the 13.5m
World Gliding Championships in 2019, opening the competition to
gliders with up to 15m wingspan with electric power units. The 2019
WGC will provide an opportunity to experience the concept in action,
allowing the IGC to consider how it can be developed for the future.

Currently, several gliders are manufactured with electric MOP
installed. These include the 13.5m mini Lak and 15m Lak, and the
prototype GP14, which has a 13.5m span. The Silent, constructed as
a microlight, is another example, and the Ventus 3 from Schempp
Hirth and JS3 from Jonkers Sailplanes are also available in FES
versions.

Without a doubt, interest in the MOP concept is growing. More
information will be available after the 2018 IGC meeting.

That is not entirely true. Some 'cruisy' type races allow engine runs with a penalty. There are assumptions made as to the advantage of the engine run.. One interesting consequence was a 1st place due to motoring the entire course (I think it was the Ensenada race). One contestant brought a peculiar sailboat that could plane running a huge outboard motor and he did the course at 20 knots, far faster than the penalty contemplated. Maybe we will see 13.5m gliders with big jet engines and 8m wingspans....

On Sunday, December 24, 2017 at 11:08:30 AM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
I gotta agree with Dan here. It's like in a sailboat race: if you start your motor you're disqualified. The use of a motor in a gliding race should be either a disqualifying event, or at the least, equated to a land-out.