A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Instrument Flight Rules
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Completing the Non-precision approach as a Visual Approach



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old November 18th 03, 10:47 PM
Frank Ch. Eigler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Clonts" writes:

[...] 1) Does "having the runway environment in sight...make a
normal landing" in 91.175 mean its ok to descend below MDA, fly a
couple more miles to the airport and then fly the pattern (circle to
land), as long as the runway is still in sight. [...]


One thing that troubles me about this is your reference to
circling-to-land. Up here in Canada, the IFR rules say that a descent
from the MDA for circling can only be done at the "final descent for
landing" - basically for the final approach. (I believe there is a
similar restriction for straight-in landings too.)

Look at it another way. If there was no prohibition against
descending below the MDA in this circumstance, what would keep a pilot
from going to 100 AGL at the earliest hole through the clouds, and
skirting the ground all the way to the airport? You are obviously
leaving all the IAP obstruction clearance margins, but are not making
that explicit by requesting a contact approach. That doesn't sound
right.

- FChE
Ads
  #32  
Old November 18th 03, 11:57 PM
Kobra
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If you have the runway in sight you don't need to cancel or request a
contact approach


Steve,

If this ap is a non-towered ap then he would have been allowed to change
freq to CTAF once cleared for the approach. Once he was assured a landing
or after he was on the ground I think he'd have to tune back to approach
control and cancel IFR with ATC.

Kobra



  #33  
Old November 19th 03, 12:02 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Kobra" wrote in message
...

If this ap is a non-towered ap then he would have been allowed to change
freq to CTAF once cleared for the approach. Once he was assured a landing
or after he was on the ground I think he'd have to tune back to approach
control and cancel IFR with ATC.


Or via phone call to FSS, but what's your point?


  #34  
Old November 19th 03, 03:48 AM
John Clonts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

The gist of my question involves either or both of these aspects:

1) Does "having the runway environment in sight...make a normal

landing"
in 91.175 mean its ok to descend below MDA, fly a couple more miles to

the
airport and then fly the pattern (circle to land), as long as the runway

is
still in sight.


Yes.


Thanks, this is as I hoped. Somewhere along the way I had picked up a
suspicion that I couldn't legally descend from MDA until aligned with the
runway.


2) Once I get to class G airspace on my approach and am clear of

clouds
in
1 mi vis, can I then descend below MDA by doing something like declaring
myself visual, contact, or canceled IFR.


No, you do not get to Class G airspace at any point at or above the MDA.



Ok, if not on this particular example, let's say it was
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...l/BWD_vr17.pdf
where MDA is 434 haa/hat, and class G up to 700? Do any new options open
up to me once I descend out of controlled airspace at 700 agl, clear of
clouds and 1 mi vis? E.g. I could cancel IFR at that point...

Thanks again,
John


  #35  
Old November 19th 03, 04:13 AM
J Haggerty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On a circling approach, it's always Height Above Airport (HAA)

EDR wrote:
In article . net,
Hilton wrote:


John Clonts wrote:

I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766


AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.

It's probable that a lot of instrument pilots do not know this.



Let's pick nits...
Is it
Height Above Aerodrome?
or
Height Above Threshhold?


  #36  
Old November 19th 03, 04:17 AM
Kobra
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Or via phone call to FSS, but what's your point?

Hmmm....I just re-read your post and I thought you were stating that he
would not have to cancel *IFR*. Now that I read closer I see you were
referring to a *contact approach*.

What's my point? I'm a lousy reader.

Kobra


  #37  
Old November 19th 03, 01:57 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Kobra" wrote in message
...

Hmmm....I just re-read your post and I thought you were stating that he
would not have to cancel *IFR*. Now that I read closer I see you were
referring to a *contact approach*.

What's my point? I'm a lousy reader.


I was saying he wouldn't have to cancel IFR or request a contact approach in
order to descend from the MDA if he had the runway in sight. Of course he
would still have to cancel his IFR clearance eventually.


  #38  
Old November 19th 03, 02:05 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

Ok, if not on this particular example, let's say it was
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...l/BWD_vr17.pdf
where MDA is 434 haa/hat, and class G up to 700? Do any new options open
up to me once I descend out of controlled airspace at 700 agl, clear of
clouds and 1 mi vis? E.g. I could cancel IFR at that point...


Yes, on this approach you enter Class G airspace before reaching the MDA.


  #39  
Old November 19th 03, 02:27 PM
Marco Leon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ...

No, you may descend below the MDA upon sighting the runway environment.


That's what I thought and was instructed to do.



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
  #40  
Old November 19th 03, 04:06 PM
Dave Butler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

John Clonts wrote:

snip

Somewhere along the way I had picked up a
suspicion that I couldn't legally descend from MDA until aligned with the
runway.


I've seen this recommended as a conservative rule to keep yourself safe on a
circling approach, but it's not regulatory. On some approaches it will be just
about impossible. You'll find that in order to descend using "normal" maneuvers
you'll need to start your descent before alignment with the runway.

Consider what happens if you are circling with visibility near the minimum for
the approach and don't descend from MDA until you are aligned. Will you be able
to get down?

OTOH, whenever you decide to descend below MDA, you are giving up the obstacle
protection that the approach designers built in, and substituting your own
visual obstacle avoidance. It's a tradeoff.

snip

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question to the IFR Pilots Out There Cecil E. Chapman Instrument Flight Rules 90 November 21st 03 04:47 PM
DME req'd on ILS (not ILS-DME) approach? Don Faulkner Instrument Flight Rules 13 October 7th 03 03:54 AM
Which of these approaches is loggable? Paul Tomblin Instrument Flight Rules 26 August 16th 03 05:22 PM
Terminology of New WAAS, VNAV, LPV approach types Tarver Engineering Instrument Flight Rules 2 August 5th 03 03:50 AM
IR checkride story! Guy Elden Jr. Instrument Flight Rules 16 August 1st 03 09:03 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.