2018 - AN EXCITING YEAR

I fly commercial rides Sundays at my local glider port. This glider operation is now pretty much being run by the second generation, i.e., very experienced operation. They have G-103 and 2-33's. I am told that they can teach someone in in the 2-33, get them past and check ride and then check that same pilot out in the G-103, in less time than it takes to teach to check ride in the G-103.

I learned to fly gliders in the G-103, and 98% of my flight time is in high performance glass so I try to avoid as many rides in the 2-33's as possible and grab the G-103 rides.

As for students flying a quieter glider, pitch angles and a good scan. I regularly fly four different types of gliders with four different approach speeds in an environment where a Very steep wind gradient can exist, or not. All have different levels of ambient noise, from the quietest I have ever not heard, to having to shout to the ride. Takes a femtosecond to scan past ASI after you set pitch angle, then maybe another look on stabilized final.


On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 6:40:06 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 12:15:07 PM UTC-7, Chris Rowland wrote:
The question to ask is would you send an average pilot solo in a Duo?

Chris

At 18:47 18 February 2018, Dave Springford wrote:
I think that you will find the primary difference between the Duo and
K-21
=
is energy management. Teaching students to manage energy and land is one
o=
f the keys to getting them solo in a reasonable amount of time. My club
pu=
rchased a Duo XL last year and while we have been training in K-21's for
10=
years, the transition to the Duo was not easy for some licensed pilots.
=
=20

It is much quieter than the K-21 so the noise feedback for speed control
is=
gone.

It is much slipperier than the K-21 so subtle changes in attitude result
in=
much larger changes in speed. Couple this with the lack of noise and
pilot=
s were finding themselves over 70 kts on final.

It carries more energy into the landing than does a K-21, although the
addi=
tion of landing flaps to the XL version resolves much of this.

Besides its handling and performance, another nice advantage is the
sideway=
s opening canopy does not result in burn marks on the instrument panel in
t=
he front and headrest in the back. We've sent an S3 vario back 2 times
for=
screen replacement because of sun burns that happen almost instantly
when
=
the sun is in the worst possible spot for a K-21.


Yes, I would send a student solo in a Duo Discus. But a better question is how much longer would it take to get the student to solo standard vs a K21. I am not sure what the average amount of flights to solo would be in each aircraft but I am certain it would be more in a Duo. For the sake of argument, lets say it would take 5 more flights to solo in a Duo. If you have 10 students, you will need 50 more flights from your instructor group. If that is not a big deal than get a Duo. If like most clubs your instructor time is at a premium then get a K-21 (or 2-33,L-23).

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 9:01:05 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

I learned to fly gliders in the G-103, and 98% of my flight time is in high performance glass so I try to avoid as many rides in the 2-33's as possible and grab the G-103 rides.


An interesting observation with respect to outreach and growing the sport that we may miss because we are so close to it:

This fall I was talking with the new girlfriend about Soaring, and she said she wanted to try it (as a passenger). So I took her out to the club which has a very well-worn 2-33.

When my turn came up, I asked her if she was ready. She gave me a small head shake and said "no". I asked if she wanted to go up with one of the instructors instead. Same answer. I let it go and we did not speak of it.

Fast forward a week. We're at the end of the Netflix queue and looking for a movie to watch, so I pop in "A Fine Day of Soaring". She sat up sharply and pointed at the screen: "There! Take me flying in that! That looks safe!"

Two things sell to the general pubic - Sexy and Safe (looking). The 2-33 fails badly on both counts.

The bad news is I may have to buy a glass 2 seater now ...

Glass two seater, i.e., Nimbus 4D and ASH-25 is the most fun I have had flying gliders. Highly recommend it. However, if you are teaching, a higher drag aircraft does not build speed as fast as a sleek one.

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 8:50:14 PM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 9:01:05 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

I learned to fly gliders in the G-103, and 98% of my flight time is in high performance glass so I try to avoid as many rides in the 2-33's as possible and grab the G-103 rides.


An interesting observation with respect to outreach and growing the sport that we may miss because we are so close to it:

This fall I was talking with the new girlfriend about Soaring, and she said she wanted to try it (as a passenger). So I took her out to the club which has a very well-worn 2-33.

When my turn came up, I asked her if she was ready. She gave me a small head shake and said "no". I asked if she wanted to go up with one of the instructors instead. Same answer. I let it go and we did not speak of it.

Fast forward a week. We're at the end of the Netflix queue and looking for a movie to watch, so I pop in "A Fine Day of Soaring". She sat up sharply and pointed at the screen: "There! Take me flying in that! That looks safe!"

Two things sell to the general pubic - Sexy and Safe (looking). The 2-33 fails badly on both counts.

The bad news is I may have to buy a glass 2 seater now ...

Yes, I would send a student solo in a Duo Discus. But a better question is how much longer would it take to get the student to solo standard vs a K21. I am not sure what the average amount of flights to solo would be in each aircraft but I am certain it would be more in a Duo. For the sake of argument, lets say it would take 5 more flights to solo in a Duo. If you have 10 students, you will need 50 more flights from your instructor group. If that is not a big deal than get a Duo. If like most clubs your instructor time is at a premium then get a K-21 (or 2-33,L-23).

One solution to the shortage of instructor hours is to use simulation. Simulation allows the instructor to get a lot more teaching done in a lot less time. Simulation-based instruction can be done any time of the day, any day of the week, and any week of the year, making it more likely the instructor gets to fly his/her own glider once in a while. Simulation also lends itself nicely to group instruction.

I mention this here because the latest release of Condor includes a Duo Discus. A club could do a lot of Duo-specific flight training in simulation prior to putting students in the glider. The flight dynamics are very accurate, so students would develop a sense of control response/effectiveness, speed control, descent rates, and sight pictures. Have them do 50-100 traffic patterns and landings in simulation before you put them in the actual aircraft and you'll lose a lot less sleep worrying about them wrecking the club Duo.

For you ASK-21 fans, an ASK-21 is in the works for Condor2.

If any of you have Skype, I would be willing to provide a flight demonstration of the Duo in Condor2. I will also have Condor2 running in a booth on the exhibit hall floor at the convention in Reno for those of you in attendance who would like to try it out.

For a Skype demo, contact me at smanley @ wisc dot edu, use the contact feature on my website gliderCFI.com or call me at six zero eight two two two six eight four three.

Scott Manley 3167160CFI

P.S. A reminder: I don't have any financial interest in Condor. I am an advocate for the sport of soaring, and specialize in glider flight simulation as a means to that end.

In my experience it's better to start out in a glider that builds up
speed quickly than to develop your habits in a drag queen and then move
up and have to essentially start over.

On 2/18/2018 10:21 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Glass two seater, i.e., Nimbus 4D and ASH-25 is the most fun I have had flying gliders. Highly recommend it. However, if you are teaching, a higher drag aircraft does not build speed as fast as a sleek one.

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 8:50:14 PM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 9:01:05 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

I learned to fly gliders in the G-103, and 98% of my flight time is in high performance glass so I try to avoid as many rides in the 2-33's as possible and grab the G-103 rides.

An interesting observation with respect to outreach and growing the sport that we may miss because we are so close to it:

This fall I was talking with the new girlfriend about Soaring, and she said she wanted to try it (as a passenger). So I took her out to the club which has a very well-worn 2-33.

When my turn came up, I asked her if she was ready. She gave me a small head shake and said "no". I asked if she wanted to go up with one of the instructors instead. Same answer. I let it go and we did not speak of it.

Fast forward a week. We're at the end of the Netflix queue and looking for a movie to watch, so I pop in "A Fine Day of Soaring". She sat up sharply and pointed at the screen: "There! Take me flying in that! That looks safe!"

Two things sell to the general pubic - Sexy and Safe (looking). The 2-33 fails badly on both counts.

The bad news is I may have to buy a glass 2 seater now ...

--
Dan, 5J

On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 7:22:04 PM UTC+3, wrote:
Yes, I would send a student solo in a Duo Discus. But a better question is how much longer would it take to get the student to solo standard vs a K21. I am not sure what the average amount of flights to solo would be in each aircraft but I am certain it would be more in a Duo. For the sake of argument, lets say it would take 5 more flights to solo in a Duo. If you have 10 students, you will need 50 more flights from your instructor group. If that is not a big deal than get a Duo. If like most clubs your instructor time is at a premium then get a K-21 (or 2-33,L-23).

One solution to the shortage of instructor hours is to use simulation. Simulation allows the instructor to get a lot more teaching done in a lot less time. Simulation-based instruction can be done any time of the day, any day of the week, and any week of the year, making it more likely the instructor gets to fly his/her own glider once in a while. Simulation also lends itself nicely to group instruction.

I mention this here because the latest release of Condor includes a Duo Discus. A club could do a lot of Duo-specific flight training in simulation prior to putting students in the glider. The flight dynamics are very accurate, so students would develop a sense of control response/effectiveness, speed control, descent rates, and sight pictures. Have them do 50-100 traffic patterns and landings in simulation before you put them in the actual aircraft and you'll lose a lot less sleep worrying about them wrecking the club Duo.

For you ASK-21 fans, an ASK-21 is in the works for Condor2.

At my club we built a simulator using an old Cirrus fuselage with the original controls, a giant plasma TV cast off from a corporate office, a small LCD panel to display instruments, and Condor.

It works really well.

However it's not at all necessary to have the exact kind of glider modelled in the sim. We find that the ASW28, in particular, is a sufficiently close match to the DG1000 that any differences in the simulated characteristics are much less important than the difference between the simulator and the real aircraft.

Curious, why do you say that?
Yes, I started (decades ago) in a 2-33, soloed, went to a 1-26, then a 1-34 (couple flights) then (after going up in a Cessna -150 to learn flaps......."flaps down, nose down......flaps up, nose up") I went through a 1-35 and a PIK-20.
Since then a few more "SGS", 2 place Lark, as well as a list of ASW sailplanes (-24 and up).
Also a CFIG for about 8 years.

Maybe it was my primary instructor (Uncle Hank), doubt it was my ability.

Just curious why you made the comment?

On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 7:32:07 PM UTC+3, Dan Marotta wrote:
In my experience it's better to start out in a glider that builds up
speed quickly than to develop your habits in a drag queen and then move
up and have to essentially start over.

I confess I don't really understand this supposed problem with a slippery glider that "builds up speed quickly".

It can only do that if you're losing a shedload of height in the process. On landing approach that's blindingly obvious, and you can turn that speed back into height, so it's not any kind of problem. At altitude it might be less obvious, but it's also harmless as long as you don't exceed Vne. Even in the quietest glider, the sound and control feel difference between 60 knots and 120 knots is pretty obvious.

Keep in mind airline pilots are already rated to fly. The sims are just for transition to a new aircraft. (i.e. type rating)

I confess I don't really understand this supposed problem with a slippery glider that "builds up speed quickly".

The problem comes when teaching students. The more difficult (slipperier) the glider to fly, the longer it takes to get a student solo.

As someone else mentioned previously, This uses instructor resources that could be better spent teaching other people to fly. It also takes up glider resources and students have to wait longer between flights.

Alternately, the "slow" student gets frustrated at not yet being solo after 50 flights and quits the sport. Some of the students that are waiting in line for the "slow" student to get it also get frustrated with the low number of flights they can achieve in a day and they quit too.

The problem is not that you can't teach someone to fly in a Duo or K-21, it is a question of resources available and the impact on the overall progress of all students in the club.