Flying through known or forecast icing

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
news:1134595839.771861@sj-nntpcache-3...
wrote:

Not to tangent too much, but doesn't that regulation regarding
"prohibited flight into known icing conditions" without certified de-ice
equipment loophole old planes? I seem to recall something about if the
POH for the aircraft does not say the magic words, "Flight into icing
conditions prohibited," then it's not illegal.

Right. The prohibition is not in the FARs, it's in the aircraft's
airworthiness certificate. The POH is derived from the airworthiness
certificate.

No, the prohibition is in the FARs--specifically, 91.527, quoted in my
previous note in this thread.

--Gary

No, the prohibition is in the FARs--specifically, 91.527, quoted in my
previous note in this thread.

That applies only to "large or turbine powered multi-engine" aircraft.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Gary Drescher wrote:

No, there isn't any such loophole in the wording of the FARs: "91.527(b)

Sorry Garry...91.527 doesn't apply unless you are flying a large or
turbine powered aircraft.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
Gary Drescher wrote:

No, there isn't any such loophole in the wording of the FARs: "91.527(b)

Sorry Gary...91.527 doesn't apply unless you are flying a large or
turbine powered aircraft.

Oops, my mistake. Thanks for the correction.

--Gary

According to Scott Dennstaedt's article in the latest IFR magazine, we won't
be seeing Airmets (or Area Forecasts) after early 2006. Better graphic
displays will take their place. Big plus is that the forecast area is more
precisely defined in both scope and time.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
: No. Legally, forecast ice is "known icing."

Not to tangent too much, but doesn't that regulation regarding "prohibited
flight into known icing conditions" without certified de-ice equipment
loophole old
planes? I seem to recall something about if the POH for the aircraft does
not say the
magic words, "Flight into icing conditions prohibited," then it's not
illegal.
Certainly not a good idea and guaranteed to bite you on "careless and
wreckless" if
something happens, but strictly speaking not immediately illegal.

With the scAIRMETS for icing constituting "known-icing" everywhere north
of
the Carolinas for significant chunks out of the year, most GA planes are
operating
illegally.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

John Doe wrote:
Ok, I know this is one of those "it depends" answers, but I'm curious as to
what folks are willing to do in the winter time.

Assumptions:

Single engine piston aircraft with NO de-icing equipment.

Situation:

It's wintertime. You want to fly XC and there are midlevel clouds in the
forecast with the potential for icing to occur.

It looks like the band is thin enough to climb through and cruise in the
clear above the weather.

SO:

1) If the cloud layer is forecast to potentially have icing, can you legally
and would you climb through the layer to get up high for your trip? how
thick a layer, type of forecast, time spent in the layer, etc. What would
you be willing to risk transition through possible icing?

I believe the recent interpretations is that this would be illegal as
the cloud layer at below freezing temps would constitute an area of
"known" icing and thus penetrating it would not be legal. As to what I
would do personally ... well, I won't answer that here! :-)


2) Would that change any if those same conditions were now reported icing
from a recent PIREP?

It would change my personal view of the situation, but I don't think it
changes the legality.


3) If it's reported, can you transit the cloud layer legally?

I don't believe you can do so legally.


4) Let's say yoru trip starts off VFR but by the time you get to your
destination, a cloud layer has formed that has reported icing in it. Can or
or would you be willing to transit this layer to land at this destionation
or would you turn around or divert to land someplace to stay out of the
clouds?

Again it depends, but if I had sufficient fuel, I'd probably divert. If
I was low on fuel, I'd descend through the layer.

Matt

How about the flight when you are VFR and encounter freezing rain with
resulting clear ice accumulation? Had it happen long about 1967 in a
brand new Cessna Cardinal in Louisiana and barely made it to the
overrun area at the approach end of the airport in Hammond, LA. Never
saw it coming and suddenly I was covered in ice......

Bob Gardner wrote:

George, your heart is in the right place...but if you think that someone at
ATC has a pad of ticket forms just ready to write you up, you are sadly
mistaken. I was told by an officer of the controller's union that
controllers are not interested in the certification status of an airplane or
a pilot.

A former Assistant Administrator for Regulations and Certification told me
that it is the pilot who encounters icing conditions and makes no attempt to
escape who would get a violation...but only if that failure resulted in an
accident/incident or required special handling by ATC. No one at a Center
operating position knows if a pilot climbs or descends through a cloud.

This has certainly been my experience also. I recently flew from
Lebanon, NH to ELM on a day with the freezing level around 4,000 and an
MEA of 6,000 across the mountains of southern VT. I picked up some
light rime and requested higher and got between layers. The clouds
again arose to smite me, so I requested higher again and broke out on
top at 10,000. My requests were calm and matter of fact and the
controllers were extremely accomodating. There was never even a hint
that they questioned why I was flying an Arrow on such a day.

Matt

George,
I've been away for a few years, but when did forecast icing
become known icing without a pirep or physical indications on the
ground? If they are the same thing now days, why are aircraft certified
for "Flight in known icing (FIKI)" and not just flight in icing
conditions?


-----Original Message-----
From: George Patterson ]
Posted At: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:16 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Flying through known or forecast icing
Subject: Flying through known or forecast icing

Bob Gardner wrote:
George, your heart is in the right place...but if you think that
someone
at
ATC has a pad of ticket forms just ready to write you up, you are
sadly
mistaken. I was told by an officer of the controller's union that
controllers are not interested in the certification status of an
airplane or
a pilot.

No, I don't think "they" are just waiting to write me up, but the OP
asked
if it
was *legal*, and it's not.

A former Assistant Administrator for Regulations and Certification
told
me
that it is the pilot who encounters icing conditions and makes no
attempt to
escape who would get a violation...but only if that failure resulted
in
an
accident/incident or required special handling by ATC. No one at a
Center
operating position knows if a pilot climbs or descends through a
cloud.

I've been told that too; however, I'm not going to go through clouds
without an
IFR clearance, and I wouldn't take either of the aircraft I've owned
through an
area in which icing has been reported. Now, if icing had only been
*forecast* in
that area but not reported, and the bottom of the cloud deck was well
above
minimums, I would chance it.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights
belong
to
your slightly older self.

I can answer that one: in 1974.

2nd question: forecast icing IS "KNOWN ICING *CONDITIONS*".

Jim Carter wrote:
George,
I've been away for a few years, but when did forecast icing
become known icing without a pirep or physical indications on the
ground? If they are the same thing now days, why are aircraft certified
for "Flight in known icing (FIKI)" and not just flight in icing
conditions?